Installing New Toerail.

Columbia34 · Post by **Columbia34** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:46 pm

We are installing a Teak toerail on our boat this weekend and wonder about the best way we have screws about every 8" do I need to put down a bed of sealant along the whole length of the toe rail or just fill the screw holes? And what should I use 3m 101, 3m 5200, or boat life? And should we varnish the bottom of the toerail before we install it. And do we bed it like hardware with tape on each side or just run a bead down the center. Thanks

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:00 pm

I would definitely prevarnish the entire toe rail a couple coats at least. Otherwise you end up with a mechanical seam where the varnish meets the bedding. When this seam fails you get moisture behind the varnish and then blistering. I used 6" spacing for my toe rail fasteners.

I highly recommend bedding it completely. It is a real nuisance to do this, and you will inevitably end up wearing some of the bedding, but well worth the effort. For my boat I did a complete dry fit, removed it and then installed it again with the bedding. I used Sikaflex 291 LOT. I applied it to both the toe rail and the deck and leveled it out on both surfaces with a spreader. This makes sure you have a complete tack to both surfaces entirely. Now when you install it you are applying bedding to bedding which reduces drastically any chances for voids or bubbles. Any good semi-adhesive marine bedding will do. Boat Life Lifecaulk is good, so are 3M products. I do not like to see 5200 used on anything that doesn't absolutely need the super adhesive properties is has. Bedding keels is a great use for it. If you have prevarnished the toe rail then I see no need for tape. The bedding will clean easily off the varnished teak and the gel coat of the deck. Some people think it makes cleaning easier, your choice really.

This picture is my taff rail, but it installs the same as a toe rail and you can see it is prevarnished and bedding oozing out all around. If the bedding doesn't ooze out every where then you have to suspect a void underneath.

Here is my boat after completing the taff rail and toe rail as well.

You will have to do several to many coats of varnish after you have installed it regardless of how many you put on before. Your bungs will have none at all. I did 3 good coats on all surfaces before installation and I have lost count of those done after.

bhartley · Post by **bhartley** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:44 pm

It was my only regret on Miranda's restoration. Extra coats will probably be needed after, but it is soooo much cleaner ahead of time.

We did a complete dry fit first and then ran a piece of blue masking tape along the topsides and deck as close to the rub/toerail as possible. We bedded with Boatlife with about 4-6' at a time as the rail went down. We had a rub rail that butted against the toerail so used the teak colored Boatlife for the rubrail. I'm very happy with that choice.

I cleaned up any major ooze immediately and then waited for the Boatlife to cure. I ran a putty knife along the edge and then pulled the blue tape. Nice and clean.

I don't know how much more work you have to do afterwards, but I ended up putting 2" blue tape on the rails after they were varnished to help cut down on the extra wear from the tromping around finishing the restoration work.

Spring is on the way! Sixties here this week (maybe snow tonight however). Two week winters work well for me. Launch coming up in March.

Bly

Columbia34 · Post by **Columbia34** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:29 pm

ok so we will varnish first. I was going to use the 5200 cause we are only using screws since thru bolting is not possible. But if you think 3M101 will work best we will go with that. We were going to use masking tape unless there is something that works good to clean 5200 or the 3m101 without using the tape. thanks.

Columbia34 · Post by **Columbia34** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:33 am

We ended up using Zspar varnish for out wood work. I had talked to Tim about what to use. And tips in what kind of cleaner to use when the 5200 or the 101 comes out of the toerail when installed, what ever works best to get it off the paint and the varnish. Thanks.

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:59 am

I'm late to this thread, but definitely varnish first with at least sealer coats, which it seems like you decided to do. As for installation, I personally would go with 5200 here, though something like 101 should work. But I think this is a place where the adhesive properties of 5200 are probably a benefit.

Every 8 inches should be more than sufficient. I believe I went with every 9 inches...

Dasein's New Toerail

Columbia34 · Post by **Columbia34** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:09 am

What did you use for a chemical to clean the 5200 up with?

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:52 am

Acetone. Worked... mmm.... Ok. It definitely stained the high-build primer that was on the decks. I don't think that would happen with a finished top-coat however. The primer and topcoat covered the stains without any problems.

I've yet to find anything that cleans up either 5200 or 101 especially well. Some folks swear by mineral spirits. Others like alcohol. None of them work great in my experience...

Columbia34 · Post by **Columbia34** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:58 am

We will be dealing with it on our awlgrip snow white topcoat. do you think we should use tape to protect the paint, or just clean up imediatly with acetone. are there any chemicals i need to worry about that would damge the topcoat?

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:38 am

Tape would certainly help cut down on the mess. Also, I forgot to mention that we cleaned up the bulk of the mess with plastic fairing squeeges (Tim can probably post a pic if you don't know what I'm talking about?he's got boxes of the things). This left not much to clean with the solvent, which I think is the only way to go.

I think Awlgrip is pretty resistant to standard solvents, but I might go with either alcohol or mineral spirits instead of acetone, just to be on the safe side. Tim can chime in here, I'm sure.

Columbia34 · Post by **Columbia34** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:56 am

Yeah I was hoping to get some input from Tim one this one.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:59 pm

I normally use paint thinner to clean up sealant mess, not acetone. No matter what you do, it's a mess and a miserable job.

A couple or three coats of sealer varnish is required, in my opinion. Sealant will indelibly get into the pores of the wood if you don't. You don't need more than this to start, since you'll need to do all your finish coats after you bung the screwholes anyway, but the protection is necessary for installation.

Either 5200 or polysulfide will work to bed your rail. Polysulfide is adhesive enough for these purposes, though there's an argument to support the use of 5200 here too. I believe I would choose polysulfide for future toerails.

I recommend the mahogany-colored (brown) sealant for this, so you don't end up with a white line anywhere. This will limit your selection to 5200, Lifecaulk polysulfide, or some of the Sika producs. 101 doesn't come in a brown color, unfortunately.

You may as well tape off the rail and deck, whether you plan to immediately clean up the sealant ooze-out or let it cure before cutting it off. If you cover as much as 2 or 3" out from the rail, you probably won't get any sealant on your deck at all. And by all means dry-fit/install your rail completely before thinking about bedding it. Tape definitely helps with the mess, at least in your mind somehow.

Be sure to have lots of rags. I often use paper towels or those shop towels in a box to rtemove the bulk of the gunk, and then finish up with a real cotton rag for the final cleanup. As soon as a rag starts getting gunk on it, you have to drop it to the floor or it's guaranteed to get into everything and all over you.

Good luck.

Columbia34 · Post by **Columbia34** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:26 pm

Paint Thinner and Laqure Thinner the same thing or will the laqure thinner hurt the paint and varnish, have have laqure thinner left over from the paint job.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:40 pm

No, they're not the same thing.

The solvent you used to thin the paint will likely dissolve the paint, no?

The sealant container will tell you what solvent to use for cleanup, but regardless what solvent you use, my Top Priority would be avoiding use of any solvent on the still relatively fresh paintjob.

Columbia34 · Post by **Columbia34** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:50 pm

paint has been on for 3 weeks. I will need some type of solvent that won't hurt the paint for clean up.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:58 pm

My point, which I admit I completely failed to communicate, was that there should be no need for any solvent to touch the paint.
Spend your effort on the front end, not the tail end of the job. A careful and complete masking job saves twice as much effort on the cleanup end.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:59 pm

3 weeks, assuming the boat is in a relatively warm shop, should take your paint to the full cure stage.

Paint thinner is mineral spirits. Use that to clean up. It's quite mild and benign, and won't harm the paint. Acetone won't hurt fully cured Awlgrip, but I wouldn't use it here.

Most of the 3M sealants will probably advise you to use the 3M adhesive remover for cleanup. That's good stuff, but an unnecessary expense compared to generic mineral spirits (paint thinner).

Columbia34 · Post by **Columbia34** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:03 pm

so figment your saying mask the boat and the toe rail?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:06 pm

Absolutely. After all this painting, you must have a pretty good hand for masking by now, eh?

Edit: Mask a LOT of the boat, not just a 3/4" strip adjacent to the rail. I think Tim alluded to a 2-3" buffer in one of his posts above, and that sounds about right to me.

Columbia34 · Post by **Columbia34** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:07 pm

I just talked to Tom from Midwest Industrial Coatings (my awlgrip dealer) he suggested using awlprep to clean the 5200 off and it won't harm the paint.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:00 pm

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to use $30/gallon solvent versus $6/gallon paint thinner...

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:00 pm

Awlprep is glorified mineral spirits. And as Tim has said, mineral spirits won't harm your paint. It didn't hurt mine, my Awlgrip was just a couple weeks old and I didn't mask at all.

Acetone just isn't needed. It won't harm cured Awlgrip, but does attack polycarbonate and some other plastics. I use acetone as little as I can get away with, which is using it very little.

Lacquer thinner contains xylene and toluene. Both are extremely potent solvents and both are known carcinogens. I don't use the stuff at all for anything. Unless you use lacquer I see no point.

My hull is white and my deck is beige, so I used white caulk. It is almost invisible. If you have a colored hull or deck I agree that brown or reddish brown will look a lot better than white.

Plastic Classic Forum

Installing New Toerail.

Installing New Toerail.

Varnish first!!!!!