Holding tank for 1966 A-30, bladder tank?

matt1 · Post by **matt1** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:49 pm

Just unseized the through hull ball valve for the head, but now we are illegal should we be stopped by USCG. We take a porta potty with us anyway, since we mostly cruise inside the barrier islands and can't pump out. I saw on the
Alberg site where several owners had gotten together and had a tank made for the newer albergs, but there was a fit problem on the older boats (mine is a 1966). If there are other owners out there that would be interested in having this done, please reply. I would like to do the same, but was wondering if anyone had any experience with a bladder type tank until we can get something more permanent. We have a christmas cruise planned, but want to make sure we are legal.

preserved_killick · Post by **preserved_killick** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:48 pm

Hi Matt,

I too need a holding tank for an old model A30. If you search the Alberg site's archives, there's a bunch of info on holding tanks.

http://lists.alberg30.org/pipermail/pub ... erg30.org/

-You likely have real all the old posts.

I'd be interested in getting a tank made, but I think we a fair number of people to get any group discounts. I seem to remember 10 or more from one of the older posts.

-jeff

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:44 pm

Matt1.

The Luders had a bladder bag when I bought the boat. I had a hard time sleeping realizing that right below me in the vee birth was a "subject to puncture" colostomy bag. Removing it was the first and smartest mod I made to the boat. I can see using a bladder for water but not much else.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:25 am

The best bet is to figure out your own requirements for the tank--space, budget, etc--and either build your own from plywood and epoxy, or have one custom made of heavy wall polyethylene to fit your personal requirements and the space you have chosen. You can construct your own tank quite inexpensively if you are inclined to take the initiative and the time required to do so; quality poly tanks are likely to cost several hundred dollars, depending on size.

If you're going to have a holding tank, then make sure it's a good one, and make sure it is usable for your own situation (space, time between pumpouts, projected use, etc). Forget about what others have done, as rarely does this end up truly fitting your needs. Someone else's requirements are likely to be completely different, and you end up with something less than ideal.

Holding tanks are annoying things to need, so be sure that you optimize the situation for yourself.

Meantime, I think you're better off sticking with the Porta-Potty as a temporary measure than with using a bladder tank. Bladder tanks are just bad holding tanks.

JonnyBoats · Post by **JonnyBoats** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:23 am

You can construct your own tank quite inexpensively if you are inclined to take the initiative and the time required to do so

Are you speaking of polyethylene or plywood and epoxy?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:29 am

I dunno about polyethelene, but plywood and epoxy is a pretty low-cost method (so long as you assign no dollar-amount to your own time/labor). My little poo box used maybe $15 worth of material.

Oh, wait, I painted it.... $15.75. Still less than half the cost of the SeaLand dip tube unit.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:11 am

JonnyBoats wrote:
You can construct your own tank quite inexpensively if you are inclined to take the initiative and the time required to do so
Are you speaking of polyethylene or plywood and epoxy?

I wrote:...build your own from plywood and epoxy...

matt1 · Post by **matt1** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:30 pm

sounds like building it is the way to go. thanks all.

preserved_killick · Post by **preserved_killick** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:03 pm

Make your own??

Has anyone done this and can speak from experience that it was a good move?

I like this idea, since I could come up with my own shape to fit my space.

I dislike the idea since not getting it right would be no fun.

-Jeff

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:06 pm

preserved_killick wrote:Make your own??

Has anyone done this and can speak from experience that it was a good move?

See above...

figment wrote:I dunno about polyethelene, but plywood and epoxy is a pretty low-cost method (so long as you assign no dollar-amount to your own time/labor). My little poo box used maybe $15 worth of material.

As for being a good move? I wouldn't make a black-water holding tank as my first epoxy and fiberglass project. But probably my second. Really, it's not too tough to do, and should be at least as high quality as a poly tank that you purchased. I was confident enough in it to even use someone else's homemade tank, just to save the time of building my own because I was doing a complete sanitation-system rebuild over the 4th of July weekend.

I assume that Tim has a write-up of how he built the one that he put on Kaholee, but I can't put my finger on it at the moment.

Post by **Tim** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:32 am

Tanks have been being built of plywood, fiberglass, and epoxy for years with a good success rate. It's not a hard thing to build, though one needs some basic experience with epoxy and fiberglass to proceed--basic skills that anyone embarking on a love affair with an old fiberglass boat would be well advised to learn.

Failure would, of course, be unpleasant. So building a holding tank from scratch may not be the best thing on which to learn fiberglass, epoxy, and filleting skills. But the learning curve is shallow, so why not try making some other sort of box as a learning experience first? Use inexpensive plywood for your test box, and learn as you go--a cheap and useful education. You'll learn enough building this little test that you'll likely have confidence to proceed with a holding tank. And your little test box may have some use for something around the house or whatever.

Or, if for some reason you don't feel like you want to tackle a holding tank afterwards, you'll know that you need to contact a tank builder for your custom tank. But more than likely, you'll learn a valuable new skill in the process either way.

A nice reference book for you is The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction, which contains a section on plywood/epoxy tanks.

Remember that there's no real mystery to fiberglass work, though it can seem that way before you get used to it; in the end, only actually doing the work will show you the way. Follow some basic steps, and you'll succeed every time. Read and follow directions!

Building something like a tank is surprisingly labor intensive to do well, so it only makes economic sense if you're using your own "free" labor. Otherwise, expensive hours add up far too quickly.

Post by **dasein668** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:25 am

Tim wrote:Building something like a tank is surprisingly labor intensive to do well, so it only makes economic sense if you're using your own "free" labor. Otherwise, expensive hours add up far too quickly.

This also explains the seemingly insane pricing of custom tanks. Once you do it yourself you'll be more tolerant of that price tag when you realize what you are actually paying for!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:14 am

Nathan wrote: Once you do it yourself you'll be more tolerant of that price tag when you realize what you are actually paying for!

That could be said for a lot of things on a boat. A $50,000 boat doesn't seem so expensive to me anymore...

If I were to do it again I might do the plywood/epoxy holding tank idea. I think it has been done innumerable times so that it has a pretty good track record of reliability. On the other hand having one professionally made relieved me of some work, some worry, ...and a boatload of cash.

BTW, A porti-potti makes you perfectly USCG compliant does it not? Or are you talking about the dumping the holding tank overboard when no one is looking part? Tossing a porti-potti onboard has often been used among my peers as a way of making the boat instantly legal.

-Britton

Triton 53 · Post by **Triton 53** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:15 am

There are portapottys that can be pumped (or is it sucked) out that cost about $150. They will hold enough for a weekend, which enough for what I plan to use the Alli-Ann for, besides, after a couple of days of sailing I'm sure I would be looking for a marina with a good resturant.

Pete

matt1 · Post by **matt1** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:08 pm

[quote- are you talking about the dumping the holding tank overboard when no one is looking part?

I'm not really concerned about that because we wouldn't do it anyway. I am really concerned about the legal issues, as the fine for that is up to $25000, and up to 5 years imprisonment for each offense. Also the space issues, as the pp has to sit on top of the permanent head, and while the A-30 is relatively spacious, having to take along the pp for every cruise is cumbersome, and god forbid rough seas send it tumbling around. It is also my understanding that if you have a pump out head without a holding tank, that unless you have some sort of keyed locking system that would prevent a pumpout, ie:padlock keeping seacock closed, that you would also be in violation. I believe that if you had a pp aboard, and explained the situation to the inspecting officer, that it would probably be okay, but you never know who has had a bad day. I prefer to stay within the law in order to not have a bad experience.
The fiberglass: I had a great learning project. My buddy's nephew, one very cold January morning, borrowed the duck boat to go hunting. He couldn't figure out why the plug would not go in, and not having a flashlight handy, decided to use his cigarette lighter to look at the hole for the plug, which was frozen up with ice. You would think that he would have smelled the gasoline from the leak but he didn't. Lucky he wasn't hurt. Major fire. Since my buddy had sentimental attachment from growing up hunting in this skiff, we decide to rebuild the transom and starboard gunnel. Fiberglass resin is nasty stuff if it gets on you, but, as Tim said, not so mysterious. I think building is the way to go, once you find the spot. On my boat it will require cutting out some of the V-berth deck on the port side, then getting as close as you can with the curvature of the boat, without getting into crazy bends. Having it not be exact can be overcome by using a thick bedding compound of resin and fiberglass microform.
Hope this wasn't too long winded.[/quote]

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:32 pm

I tried installing a plastic holding tank two years ago, and during the installation process the inlet fitting cracked. I returned the plastic tank and built my own fiberglass composite tank with bronze fittings. The fittings haven't broke, the tank is built like a tank, no leaks, no fuss, the composite material is holding up well. I'd do it again. Except the next time I'd probably use plastic/nylon/Marelon fittings to save some weight.

JSmith · Post by **JSmith** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:26 pm

I think I know the answer but have read that if the valve/seachest over board is shut as well as the in-line valves on either side of the macerator, do you really need a vented loop? There would be some water running back to the tank but the pump switch and valves would be together so all could be shut down quickly. With the limited space I have it would help not having that 2nd vented loop.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:15 pm

As long as a valve is somewhere in the line then the siphon action is broken.

The problem for me is in the remembering to close the valve or an uninformed guest not closing the valve. Since I have little faith in my ability to keep on top of those things I have anti-siphon loops in my setup. They definitely clutter up the area though.

-Britton

JSmith · Post by **JSmith** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:02 pm

That was my feeling as well except this would be just in the line for pumping the tank overboard "outside the 3 mile limit" . It wouldn't be used very often (although one numb spell to forget is all it takes), and the valve would always be closed except when both were opened in that line. I lay things out and see how cramped anad ugly it gets.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:57 pm

I did this without a problem.

I do not discharge the toilet overboard, but I put a Y-valve in the tank discharge line-- one for the pumpout fitting, and the other for a hand-operated pump to pump the tank overboard while at sea. There is no vented loop in the overboard discharge line and if the seacock is open, the Y-valve must be open to pump overboard. It was just not practical/no room to install a vented loop after the hand pump. That, and I rarely use this line.

If you do decide to install a vented loop, make sure the vent is between the pump and the seacock. If you install the vent before your macerator, you will burn out the pump trying to get enough suction to pump out (the loop is VENTED afterall).