Sillcocks, Saber 28 Restoration

[Randy Burns]

The project begins. For cockpit and sink drains this boat has 1 1/2" pipe coated in fiberglass and fiberglassed into the hull during construction. They are a straight run thru the hull, with no sillcocks. I haven't seen this before on a boat, Im used to them being above the water line. Does anyone know what ABYC thinks about this? It seems fairly rugged, altough the drain and pipe fittings are standard residentual plumbing and will be replaced.
Randy

[Maine Sail]

If they are below the waterline the ABYC wants seacocks on them. As an individual boat owner you don't have to restore your boat to ABYC standards if you don't want to. That being said it is generally good practice to have a seacock at any below waterline location. It is also a good practice to install them at any opening that can go under water while heeled

[Randy Burns]

Thanks, thats what I thought I would hear.

[Rachel]

I agree; I like to have proper seacocks on anything that's below the resting waterline for sure, and really, the dynamic waterline as well, if you can.

Some folks figure that since you basically never close your cockpit drains, there is no sense in having seacocks on them. And I can see the logic. But... I still like them.

I have not deconstructed a Sabre (Sabre 28 sailboat?), but it seems that oftentimes when you do cut out some of these early/factory setups (especially if there is metal buried within), you end up thinking "Whew, how did that not sink the boat up till now." You may not find yours like that, but... it's nice to know for sure.

Still, it's nice to get some additional input, isn't it, if you're on the fence.

Rachel

[Ric in Richmond]

I have not deconstructed a Sabre (Sabre 28 sailboat?), but it seems that oftentimes when you do cut out some of these early/factory setups (especially if there is metal buried within), you end up thinking "Whew, how did that not sink the boat up till now." You may not find yours like that, but... it's nice to know for sure.

Rachel

Is that what you were thinking with the A30??? I give the ones on my A35 a gentle push/pull when she was out of the water and they seem solid...40+ years and no issues.

Watch her be on the bottom when I go to the marina next.

[Rachel]

Hi Ric,

The A-30s have a couple of known issues, one being brass gate valves and the other being a couple of "home made" through hulls, wherein the builders simply pushed a piece of pipe through the hull, placed a washer on the outside, and then peened the pipe over.

Neither of those features sounding very comforting, I removed and replaced them with new, better materials (in my case, fiberglass backing pads, bronze through hulls, and bronze seacocks; plus new hoses and clamps).

While the gate valves - and even the home made through hull - didn't look bad in my case (freshwater boat), I did find some scary hose connections. For example, on the galley sink drain, the hose consisted of one larger hose overlapping a smaller one and then (just barely) clamped together. This was not obvious before I disassembled it (you can imagine the look on my face as that revealed itself).

I've also seen (on other boats) fiberglass tubes that are more-or-less hanging on by a thread, deteriorated copper piping buried in 'glass, plastic PTH connectors that were engaged by one thread into the top of the seacock, etc.

On the other hand, I have seen fiberglass tubes, and (as mentioned) gate valves that were fine, but how do you know for sure until you take them apart? I just like to know that hardware/holes below the waterline are as good as I can make them. I have enough problems sleeping without that on my mind.

Rachel

PS: Ack, don't even say that about your boat. Of course, even with all precautions, I'm always straining to see that mast right where I left it whenever I arrive back at the boat, so I know what you mean.

[Randy Burns]

Since the only time I almost sunk a boat was when the sink drain hose slipped off the thru hul l(no sillcock) while heeled over, j guess I'll go with\ the sillcocks.

[Maine Sail]

Since the only time I almost sunk a boat was when the sink drain hose slipped off the thru hul l(no sillcock) while heeled over, j guess I'll go with\ the sillcocks.

Randy,

As a point of reference for your project sillcocks are used to pass through the outside walls of buildings and are generally for a garden hose or similar. Seacocks are used on boats to seal off the hull from sea water. In case you begin searching for seacocks I did not want you to waste your time typing in "sillcock" and not finding what you were looking for. We knew what you were talking about but Google may not.

Seacocks should be made from marine bronze, which is usually 85-5-5-5 bronze, Marelon or in some cases marine grade stainless steel. You would be very wise to use only seacocks that have or carry a marine UL listing or rating and have passed the ABYC corrosion standards. Home center valves are high zinc yellow brass and can corrode and fail.

[mitiempo]

Early Pearsons also had fiberglass tubes without seacocks as I recall. For cockpit drains the issue is that the cockpit flexes, even a bit, and over many years (they are all quite old now!) the flexing can easily crack and weaken the fiberglass tubes. Hose to a proper seacock gives with the inevitable flex.

[Randy Burns]

Thanks. I do note some stress indicated between gelcoat and tube from below. Will replace with SEAcocks. ( I knew that but it was late) Would it make sense to reloate sink drains to the waterline?
Randy

[Rachel]

Randy,

I wouldn't be surprised if your sink drain (the part in the bottom of the sink) is fairly close to the waterline. So, if you ran the drain out above the waterline, it might then be a fairly horizontal run. At rest, it might not drain very well, and heeled, you would have one tack where it was basically pointing up. Also there is the potential "yucky" streak down the topsides from galley sink drainage.

I have see some powerboats with sinks that drain above the waterline, but they had a couple of things going for them: 1) The bottom of the sink was well above the waterline; and, 2) no heeling to speak of.

On the other hand, if you aren't looking for a "straight" and un-aided drain, you could do like I had on one boat, which is have the sink drain out near the transom, above the waterline, and then have a sump below the galley (a small tank, say). On the boat in question, we pumped it out with a small hand bilge pump. A minor plus was one fewer seacock (but only minor because to my mind a well installed seacock is not a bad thing); a larger plus was that we could have a wonderfully deep sink and not worry about the drain in the bottom of the sink being below the waterline (this keeps many sailboat sinks rather shallow). Still though, we ran the sump drain out near the transom and not just straight out the side.

If I had a boat like yours and was not concerned with having a super-deep sink (like for living aboard and cooking a lot), I would probably just keep the drain as-is, but put in a good seacock (which you can close when you are not using it, and/or if the sink takes on water on one tack).

Rachel

[mitiempo]

I agree with Rachel. There is nothing wrong with a well installed quality seacock. I wouldn't relocate it outboard as, like Rachel said, it would be useless on one tack. I actually moved my sink farther inboard, just off center, and will move the seacock farther inboard as well when I haul out to allow it to drain easier when sailing on starboard tack - my sink is to starboard.
I think most powerboats have many of their through hulls above the waterline - but they can get away with it.

[JoeC]

The cockpit drain hoses on my seasprite are closing in on 30 years and was thinking of replacing them.
The existing ones are fabric reinforced with about 1/8" thick wall.
The only close to suitable marine hoses on the market today are generally for intake/exhaust applications
and are very stiff with wall thickeness of approx 1/4".
I am concerned about the side loads that these stiff hoses would put on the fittings when one tries to
match the existing curves.
I am considering using automotive radiator hoses(or more heavy duty truck hoses) that come preformed.
The environment that they operate in is far more severe that they would encounter as cockpit drain hoses.
Would appreciate your thoughts on this and any recommendations....thanks
Joe

[Rachel]

I could see using the pre-formed radiator type hoses when the geometry of the boat precludes using regular, high-quality marine hose.

However, that said, if I thought any of my drain/seacock fittings were too weak to take a side load, or pressure, from a straight hose that would fit, I would be wanting to re-work those fittings. I believe ABYC mentions a 500lb. static load (although I may have that wrong). Regardless of what they say though, I want to know those fittings are robust and I would change them if I had any doubt.

I have used high-quality wet-exhaust hose. Exact type (wire/no-wire/easy-bend-Michelin-tire-man shape) dependent on the situation.

Rachel

[JoeC]

Thanks Rachel for your feedback. I agree that one should use only a high-quality marine product
in below waterline situations but there does not seem to be any marine hoses on the market specifically
designed for the cockpit drain conditions which are far less severe then the engine exhaust hoses they
offer. My understanding is that wire reinforcement is mainly to prevent collapse of hose and fabric
reinforcement for burst strength. A good point,that the fittings should be able to withstand some lateral
load anyway, but I still feel uncomfortable with the possibility of introducing that load and also additional
loads from relative movement of the cockpit and hull thru flexing..a stiff hose would provide this load path.
I still can not see any downside to using automotive radiator hose except maybe longevity....they
operate in harsh conditions..over 200deg F, over 15psi press. ..continous vibration...oil..gas..etc
I could be just trying to talk myself into this but have found over the years many products that work
just as well or better on boats but don't have that magic word "marine" tagged on them. Thanks again
for your help.
Joe

[Rachel]

Joe,

I don't have the data in front of me right now to look up the exact requirements, but with wet-exhaust hose (which both Shields and Trident also recommend for scuppers, etc. if I remember correctly), I believe that the wire-reinforced choice has to do with the length of the hose run, and/or the degree of bend required (long run, or more bend = wire). So, you may be able to use the (also high quality) un-wire-reinforced variety, depending on your set up.

Then, there is also an even more flexible, corrugated type for if you have tight bends. It's less common. It has bulges every inch or so (looks kind of like the MIchelin Tire man). It would have use limitations, but if you could use it it is rather flexible.

So, depending on the length and curve required by your particular setup, you may be able to use the non-wire-reinforced hose, or even the corrugated hose.

Rachel