Headliner Pox ??

[hriehl1]

1968 Hinterhoeller HR 28
For peace of mind, I had a survey done today before I got in too deep. Happy to say it went VERY well with the only surprises being pleasant ones. There is no core on this boat, which was my biggest worry; deck readings were bone dry and soundings were fine.

But... I do have a headliner issue. The cabin has some sort of plastic-like headliner about 1/16 inch thick; probably sprayed or troweled on. It is brittle in some spots and a bit softer and pliable in others. It has what can only be described as pox that, when popped, leech out brown goo. The photos show the leeching, the pox texture and a chip of this material.

Anybody familiar with what this might be? I'm not sure what to do except chip it all out and then rebuild an alternate headliner... not a fun prospect.

I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts.

[Rachel]

Huh. What I can see of that weeping stain, looks a lot like what you get from deteriorated core. Especially since it is coming from fastener holes.

I would say rust from steel fasteners, but that wouldn't be gooey.

Have you made a core sample (like, say with a hole saw) to see what is actually in there? My mind keeps thinking "core," even though you don't have any. At this point, I would want to see a core sample, myself. I have a hard time deciding how to proceed on something until I know what I'm dealing with.

Rachel

[mitiempo]

Looks like rotten core to me as well. For it to be liquid there would have to have been leaks from deck hardware. If this boat doesn't have core in the deck and/or cabintop it is one of a very small percentage that doesn't. George Hinterhoeller was one of the founders of C&C yachts, and they used more core than most builders, including the hulls of many models.

[earlylight]

My bet is that if you take a small core sample with a hole saw you will find it to have a balsa core or the rotten remnants of same. Good luck.

[Rachel]

Or, possibly... blistered headliner, leaching sytrene goo? But then what would trap water in there to make it blister if there is not a core? Caulk around fasteners trapping water that came through the deck?

[hriehl1]

There is absolutely no core on this boat... I am certain and it was confirmed by the surveyor. Moisture readings along the entire topsides of the cabin (and entire deck) were bone dry, he couldn't believe it... yet moisture readings on the underside against the headliner were high. Look at the photo in the glare area next to the seepage... those pimples are within that headliner plastic and when popped they leech out the brown goo.

So, given the widespread pox, I think it is clear that this headliner needs to go and needs to be replaced by something:
- not too expensive or labor intensive
- providing some insulation & condensation mitigation.

I'll be researching alternatives but if anyone has thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

[hriehl1]

Just thought I'd follow up with current status. Spent over 20 hours with hammer and chisel chipping out the headliner in the main cabin (forward headliner gets done this spring, probably another 10 15 hours). Problem definately came from that material as the layup behind it has been dry without any goo-leeching since stripping was completed in October. I correspond with another HR28 owner with the exact same problem and solution.

Friends are trying to convince me to put up some sort of latticework wooden headliner, but I'm thinking just some paint for a year or two... I'm not much of a craftsman and I'd rather be on the water sooner. I can always do a headliner later on.

Spring is approaching...

[Rachel]

Well I'm glad you don't actually have rotten core, although.... there is this little voice inside me saying "Well has the boat been below freezing since last October and that's why there's no new oozing?" But that's just the annoying voice that won't let me sleep nights ;)

On what to put in new... since your cabin top is not cored, is it stiff enough for you? I've noticed that when people have un-cored cabin tops, unless they are fairly small in area, they often end up building in some sort of stiffener so they can walk around on it without flexing. So, how does yours seem? If it is something you would want to stiffen up, then you could make that part of the new headliner system.

Another related question is how close are you on headroom? Do you have an inch or so to play with or do you need every last bit?

[hriehl1]

The deck above the cabin is plenty stiff, even with my substantial girth walking about.

Since the headliner came out, the boat has seen probably 50 freeze / thaw cycles... a 25 degree sunny day gets it to 35 or 40 in the boat under the tarp. No new ooze. And from the headliner chips (some saucer-sized) I took off and autopsied, it was clear the ooze originated within whatever that material is.

My concerns with just a 'glass headliner are condensation, noise and aesthetics. I have a very little cabin height to play with, I'd want to take no more than an inch since I have only 2 or 3 inches clearance for my 5'10' frame right now. I'll start with slapping on some enamel this spring and see how we like living with it.

[truehand]

I replaced the headliner in my previous sailboat. I thought about just painting or just using "hull blanket" but I wanted the insulation for sound and condensation and I didn't want to fair the bumpy interior glass work before painting. Most of all, I wanted it to look perfect so I ended up using foam backed marine vinyl but the real trick was finding a good contact adhesive. After much research and searching I found "Helmiprene" was the product for the job.
I have now sold the boat but the headliner performed well, looked awesome and I'm confident it will stay stuck for decades.

[Rachel]

Sounds like you don't have to listen to the evil voices in my head then ;)

I wonder how they made the cabin top so stiff? Are there beams or stringers of some kind? Maybe it's not that large (I'm not mentally picturing the cabin at the moment).

I'll start with slapping on some enamel this spring and see how we like living with it.

It sounds like you're set on paint then, for now (so I won't ramble needlessly about other ways ;D). One note is that you might have to sand that back off if you later want to apply something else. Not that there's anything wrong with a nicely painted white overhead - they can be nice and light-reflective.

[mitiempo]

A removable headliner need not use much of the existing headroom. 1" should be maximum. I would epoxy 1/2" x 2" ply strips side to side evenly spaced, probably 18" to 30". One strip fore and aft on the center line possibly as well. The panels can be made of 1/8" ply with Formica on them. They overlap the ply strips by about 3/4" and are screwed to them is a few places. 5/16" varnished trim pieces go side to side to cover the gaps, attached in their centers with flat or oval head screws in the 1/2" gap between the panels. The panels need few screws as the trim pieces will keep them in place. Access for through deck fastenings is easy and wiring can be run on the overhead through notches cut in the 1/2" x 2" ply strips. 1/2" closed cell insulation can be cut and placed in the open sections, held in place with adhesive, but they won't come loose with the panels holding them in as well. The panels should be painted on the upper side for protection or epoxy sealed as an alternative. My preference for attaching the Formica is epoxy as it also seals the wood.

Here's a link to James Baldwin's site showing the method on a Nicholson 31 - scroll down a bit.
http://atomvoyages.com/projects/Nicholson.htm

Here are 2 pics of the results of this method on a Westerly.

[hriehl1]

Those voices are not evil... they are the voices of one who takes pride in a well-maintained and good-looking boat. For me, it need only be safe and reasonably comfortable; looks can be compromised.

There are no beams or stringers but the cabin ceiling is slightly arched... the surveyor kept shaking his head while he went over the boat and muttered things like: "Your hull is twice as thick as on today's 28-footers" and "You have 6 thwarts across the bilge where today there would be two". I think in the 60s they just overbuilt them. Isn't the similar Triton also built like a tank?

That Formica headliner is nice and maybe someday... but I'm itching to get on the water. Even if I tried the foam-backed headliner, it would look lousy. When I say I am not a craftsman, I'm being kind. I'm more of a butcher. My track record with any kind of finish work is pathetic.

[Rachel]

hriehl1 (<--- that's really hard to say, by the way ;),

Just to clarify, "the voices" are the ones that whisper about how there surely must be rotten core everywhere on older fiberglass boat decks. You don't even need to think about them though since you have no core

On the aesthetics, I think it's a good thing to know your limitations and what matters to you. Better to have a simple, tidy paint job and be sailing (if that is your goal), than a messy, half-finished, monster headliner project that you aren't "into."

[mitiempo]

I agree with Rachel, but a headliner like what I posted about is easier to make look good than a fitted foam headliner. Smoothed and painted will be quicker and a less expensive.

[Quetzalsailor]

I purchased a 4' x 8' sheet of the Despot's (also at Lowes) fiberglass sheet wall surfacing, about $25. This stuff is shiny and covered in a random-ish diamond pattern on the show side and dull flat on the back. It looks a lot like some patterned head liners. I intend to use this stuff as the 'headliner' in our house shower. I will mount it patterned side up (against the deteriorated plaster), and smooth side down. I will have to sand and maybe paint the smooth side, since it's not all that regular and smooth. Thinking I'll glue it up with 5200, to the plaster, and seal the perimeter with something good. Thinking I'll prop it up for the cure with a bit of plywood and springsticks. No fasteners, no trim, no joints in a 3'-7 x 3'-1 surface. If you hear indeterminate, but distant, rage you may suspect it's me and that I dropped the 5200-ed sheet against the tile surround. I'll use a portion of the ample scrap for sunscreens (for when we're not aboard or for the sunny side when we are) for the ports on Quetzal.

[hriehl1]

Rachel... you said it better than I could.. but it captures my outlook accurately. Clean and neat? Yes. Chosen for a photo shoot for Good Old Boat? Not...so...much.

My very best most careful finish work would make most of you cringe.

And feel free to use "Hank" instead of hriehl1.