I am succumbing to overall length lust!

ghostwriter247 · Post by **ghostwriter247** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:59 am

So i started out looking at bristol 24s. I love the way they look and they really do what i need which is be easy to handle for a singlehander and be built well but most importantly they look very pretty.

Of course room does matter so i looked the 27s, once again meets all the above criteria but i just didnt like the look of them as well as the twenty four. plus they're built better, Tritons and ariels look nice, and are great boats but just didn't excite me like the 24. and irrationally (given what james baldwin has done) scare me with the lack of mechanical fastening and problems with the boom. (what can i say, ive read too many books and not sailed enough)

So i figured stick with the 27, She is pretty if not as pretty IMHO as the 24 Id rather have the extra room and double baby stays.

Then i saw some pictures of the alberg 30! love at first sight. very well proportioned, I can have my cake and eat it too! Lots of info, (this was a downside on the bristols). And the downside is if i just put off the purchase a few months they fall into my price range.

Life is good when trying to pick between these five boats is your biggest hurdle, no?

Of course if anyone posts up a picture of the alberg 35 im prolly screwed, LOL.

While function comes first, its a great day when aesthetics makes the decision for you....unless you own a hunter. LOL

Im sure any one of the three would actually be very nice.

Bluenose · Post by **Bluenose** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:26 am

Okay Ghostwriter, I'll contribute to you dilemma. Here is a Alberg 35 that is one of my mooring neighbors.

I posted these over on Sailfar in response to a similar topic on boat size. Might be worth checking out.

http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=2396.0

About all I can say on this topic is that those who can single handle large boats, and I consider the Alberg 35 at 13,000 lbs disp and 535 sq ft of sail area large, are far, far better sailors than I am. I guess I should have said enjoy and comfortably sail large boats single handed. It just seems that time on the water is inversely proportional to size.

Not to mention that the ratio of maintenance hours to sailing hours goes up as well.

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:28 pm

if you're going to lust after size at least make it something truly breath taking.........

Bluenose · Post by **Bluenose** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:59 pm

I'll second the choice of the New Your 30 for your next, larger sailboat.

But you would have to post soooo many photos that Tim might be compelled to rename this forum.

Happy Hunting

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:14 pm

And the downside is if i just put off the purchase a few months they fall into my price range.

... and your operating and maintenance expenses will double...

(not really, probably more like a 50% increase in reality)

One Way David · Post by **One Way David** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:26 pm

I think I'm just a few miles south of you and wonder where you'll be sailing. Is trailering a concern?

ghostwriter247 · Post by **ghostwriter247** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:24 am

I definitely understand about the big boat thing single handing. right now i couldnt imagine being able to singlehand a 35! A thirty (with a whole lot of searoom for error) i could see, which does limit me. Plus being inland, a 35 would be a dock queen, unless i slipped it in chicago, which Im not willing to do right now.

Beautiful boats! that second one, its a new yorker 30? that is breathtaking, not to mention an awful lot of canvas!

Price definitely figures in! After restoring a couple of cars and a few bikes you learn real quick just how much you pay for the joy of a whole lot of work. But i guess thats the point isnt it? Sailing: the art of going nowhere fast while getting wet at great expense.

Honestly though, definitely understand the increase in cost being exponential. I wasn't so much looking at littler boats from that perspective, but more from a work perspective. If i go with an alberg i would definitely spend more up front and get one already upgraded as opposed to buying one that needed lots of work (which of course it still will).

At first i did think about the whole trailering issue, but realistically, I prolly wouldn't trailer unless maybe once to slip it into michigan to run up to the apostles or something like that.

I've actually got access to a rig that would pull it and i've pulled heavier loads but when you balance the cost of a triple axle trailer for the use it would seem its just not really worth it.

I noticed you are in kansas. Are you down near KC?

Chris Campbell · Post by **Chris Campbell** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:11 am

My last boat was a 38 footer, my current boat is a 30. I didn't find the 38 difficult to singlehand, or difficult to take out for a short sail - she was set up with systems to make that easy - autopilot to steer while I dealt with sailhandling (hoisting/reefing/handing the main, at the mast); Dutchman system to control the main coming down; roller furling on the jib to eliminate that as a hassle. Going out for an hour was completely worth it - just not a problem. So why switch down in size? Everything on Weatherbird was big (by my standards, I realize that for some a 38 is a completely reasonable size, even small), and cost a lot. She was a seriously lovely boat, and demanded of me that I keep her in the manner to which she was accustomed (which is the way I keep any boat, but she was spendy to do so on). Because of the way boat hauling works in my part of the world there was no way I could avoid being a member of a club to keep her, so it cost me a bundle annually just to launch/haul/store/moor. So I chose to buy a 30' boat and build a shed at home for storage and a trailer to bring her home on (she's not a trailer-sailor, but I no longer have a yacht club membership and I can work on her at home). And for some reason I've got this self-sufficient feeling - the boat is manageable for me. I no longer feel like I own a museum piece that I have to honor and revere - I own a boat that I can work on and sail. Which is completely subjective and vague, but there you go.

Of course you might want to try out owning a large boat first - maybe you'll love it and feel completely comfortable with it, who knows?

No matter what you do, boat ownership and boat use are two of the most satisfying things you'll ever do. Enjoy!

Post by **Tim** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:38 am

The burden of cost and labor is directly related to the volume of the boat, so ownership and maintenance costs tend to increase exponentially as you grow only a little in overall length. The easiest way to figure this relative comparison of cost is to use displacement numbers as your guide: displacement is the most accurate indication of actual boat size.

For example, if a Bristol 24 displaces "X", and an Alberg 35 displaces "2X", you can plan on at least twice the cost for maintenance,upgrades, and so forth.

All boats cost more to restore and maintain and outfit than people think, but all the more so once the size starts creeping up. Tread carefully! Be sure you want and need the size before you go there. And then think twice about it. The most-used boats on the water tend to be the smaller ones that are easier to get underway and cost less to own and operate.

Mario G · Post by **Mario G** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:46 am

Being new to the cruser style sail boat I think anything over a trailer able size would be difficult if you weren't going to cruse more then just lakes. My chrysler C-22 seems to be the perfact size for the lakes., And for what its worth i'm not getting over my head. I wonder how many projects get started on not finished thinking "we need a bigger boat" Don't get me wrong I plan on blue water and if the C-22 doesn't suit I'll be looking for the C26. And with sites like this will have the knowledge to continue to enjoy the dream.

Btw Sweet save on the 38 Tim, I have seen a few set neglected like that and couldn't even think what it would have taken to save.

I'm lucky that mine was in very good shape and only needed minor body work and customization.

ghostwriter247 · Post by **ghostwriter247** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:14 pm

I remember reading about six years ago that about five years was a good enough time to research boats before you bought, and even then it will still be a learning experience and i have to agree. While i know its not the same, restoring my cars taught me alot about hidden costs. I definitely understand the exponential increase. Thats why im kinda topped out at a thirty. Once you start looking at the difference in slip costs and rigging on a 27 versus the 30, it becomes obvious. Just the maintenance costs alone on a yearly basis are impressive, much less dealing with restoring the critical components on a refit. Anything bigger is really outside my price range to finish not to mention what i feel i want to start on.

I really love your blogs, they help out tremendously in understanding the level of maintenance involved. If my 25 hunter hadnt been totalled, i would have refit it and what little i did wasnt an eye opener per se since ive done restoration work before, but it was a nice primer on costs as i had at at least a fairly detailed plan with costs before buying it.

Thats why if i do go with an alberg over the bristol, ill definitely spend more up front, to try to escape cost creep, though i definitely realize there will be some. Though i havent gotten into working up resto plans yet, I figure on a thirty footer, if i spend 10 to 15k on an alberg in decent sailable shape with a good suvey, ive prolly got 15 to 20 more after that to have her blue water capable with all the critical components replaced or restored and cosmetics taken care of with me doing most of the work. and that is if their are no major defects going in. Not cost effective per se but it never is. Does that sound about right? Casey's and calders books helped out tremendously in understanding most of this. Im working my way through Vigors corpus now.

I read jerry cardwell's book, that talks about the price increase of bigger vs a smaller sailboat, but after looking pretty hard at what i wanted in a sailboat the nearest i could come to a trailerable (using that term very loosely) in my price range were the bristols.

A the end of the day it will prolly come down to either the bristol or the alberg based on the availability. Neither would be bad.

cmartin · Post by **cmartin** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:23 pm

Nothing at all wrong with an A30, I hope to own one soon myself. If you like to over think things like me, dont forget it's not just more bottom paint and storage fees, it's more everything. Fittings, lines, hardware, winches... are generally bigger/more expensive as you move up in size. I dont mean to sound negative, hopefully you see where I'm coming from. I've become a big fan of the just big enough idea.

btw. If you are looking at Bristols and A30's, you really need to try out a Triton. It's ~7/8's of a A30 and a damn good boat. I'm 6'3" and it's a wee bit cramped for me where the early/pre liner A30 is nice and cozy.

ghostwriter247 · Post by **ghostwriter247** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:44 pm

I really do appreciate all the replies about cost. and i dont take it as negativity. I dont think hidden costs can be understated even with as much research as i've done.

The vast majority of restorations never get done either because of lack of money or biting off more than you can chew. I did it with my first car, a 1970 dodge challenger. It was a good lesson to learn.

Yeah when i said increased cost I've actually priced out most of the critical components for a 27 versus thirty plus the yearly maintenance and it becomes apparent real quick. thats why ive topped it at thirty at the most. Im sure ive got a lot to learn and in practice i will continue to, but ive tried to read every cost thread I came across over the last couple of years on sailnet and cruisers forum to Learn where to look for the extra costs to take them into account.

I really do like the pre liner albergs actually. If i go that route im definitely looking for one of the earlier over the later liner versions. that was a downside of the bristol is the headliner, but its workable.

I really liked the room in my hunter 25.5 and i think the alberg would be about the same.

I definitely have not ruled out the triton or the ariel for that matter and they are great boats. all things being equal for me, the looks of the bristol or the alberg edge out over the pearson...which prolly means im on the wrong board! LOL

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:55 pm

Mine!!

Click my sig for more...and HUGE screen filing shots.

Bluenose · Post by **Bluenose** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:11 pm

ghostwriter247 wrote:Beautiful boats! that second one, its a new yorker 30? that is breathtaking, not to mention an awful lot of canvas!

I also think that displacement is an accurate way to measure boats, again I agree with Tim. But I am thinking about performance. You mentioned that the New York 30 had an awful log of canvas. Well obviously she is a race boat so she is well canvased. But I feel sailboats lose canvas as they grow. They sort of have to so an average sailor can manage it.

So they tend to be under canvased without the addition of huge, rarely used, light air sails. And they can become slaves to their engines or their moorings.

The Alberg 35 that I posted photos of, rarely goes for a sail. Her effective sailing wind range is just too narrow to cope with the variable winds of the San Juan Islands.

So if I was upgrading to a larger boat, and sailing was really important, I would do some simple math. First I would sail on larger boats to find out what size sail plan felt comfortable. Then I would figure out what displacement combined with my comfortable sail plan provided good light air performance. From my experience that is an SA/D ratio somewhere north of 18. Then I would find a boat that met these two requirements.

That would provide a boat that could sail well in a very wide range of wind strengths. It would be a safe boat since the sail plan is comfortable and capable. That is if you had decided to motor and for some reason the engine took some time off, your sail plan could save your boat most of the time.

I completely understand that it isn't all about sailing for everyone. But in my perfect world more sailboats would sail more often. I just think it is beautiful to see a bay full of boat with their sails up.

Cheers, Bill

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:37 pm

Just in case you need more convincing that 30 just ain't big enough. Here is my Luders 33

On the mooring in Noank CT and off the shore of Rhode Island on our way back from Cuttyhunk. Looks a lot like the A35.

What you don't see is that we were over canvased and I was hanging onto the tiller with white knuckles but we looked good.

One Way David · Post by **One Way David** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:56 am

Ghostwriter, I'm closer to St. Joseph, about 75 miles NE of KC. I sail in Lake Perry between Lawrence and Topeka. Neat lake, almost always has wind, but not always in the same direction.
Trailering a bigger boat isn't so much about trailering, unless you get to the oversized load size. Its the launch fees. I don't pay nothing to back my little Ensign into the water and float her off. 30 minutes to step the mast and be afloat or unstep the mast and be on the road.

Bluenose, good advice. But I'm such a novice I haven't developed the muscle memory, etc. to even know what I want(ed). I read a lot and took the plunge and bought the Ensign (and I sure don't regret that). After a couple of years sailing that I'll go boat shopping with the try it first philosophy and bet I go back and reread this advice.

tpl · Post by **tpl** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:01 am

> ensign

love it--our "lakes boat" was the self-bailing version
"electra," with evinrude 4hp and ratcliffe
wind-steering: sailed around Lake Erie, sailed to
Chicago, twice around Lake Huron. Great boat.

for the "ocean boat" with what she taught us, we found
nothing really suitable short of 12-13 thousand pounds
displacement: the Nicholson 32 was the other.

now I'm working to not "move up" to 40-41 foot. Aside
from cost, my two best arguments are 1. need roller
furling on the jibs 2. need steering wheel.

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:12 pm

the picture I posted a few days back is a Herreshoff New York 30, 30 ft on waterline, about 43 oveall as I recall. Designed and built in 1905. Amorita, yacht pictured, had a rather unpleasant meeting with a Fife design (Sumaroon or similar) at the Tiedemann Regatta here in RI several years back. Went down off of Beavertail, she was raised a few days later and is in the hands of Philbrick,McClave and Giblin awaiting restoration after resolution of some further unpleasantness with insurance companiess....

Bluenose · Post by **Bluenose** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:10 am

awaiting restoration after resolution of some further unpleasantness with insurance companiess....

Hard to imagine greater unpleasantries than this. But with insurance companies and wealthy owners...

ghostwriter247 · Post by **ghostwriter247** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:25 pm

Great responses guys. I was concerned in moving to a thirty about light air sailing on a 30, since around here we dont have the nice sustained coastal winds. I cant imagine anything worse than watching other boats go out while you stuck at the dock cuz you are too heavy.

Thanks for the sa/d ratio. These older boats certainly seem under canvassed in comparison to some of the more modern boats. What are your thoughts on adding a cutter rig to either the alberg or bristol for light air? would this solve this problem? Could you roll out both in light air and the use just the mainsail in good wind? If you would do this would you mount the jib on a small bowsprit and the staysail to the stock jib mount, or just mount the staysail to the inner deck? I figured two smaller sails might work better and if you had to rig for heavy weather you could use the inner. Is this what is meant when they say that under a reefed main needs to be balanced? Can somebody unpack that statement for me and how a cutter helps with that? It seems most people with really big genoas cant pick up the light wind any better maybe cuz they are so heavy?

I saw a b24 rigged much like this with a lot of beefed up features, and tim had quite a chucke over it. LOL.

Isnt it nice when people are so amazed at a picture and you secretly thinking, ummm yeah actually there was definitely some white knuckle there. Had a few of those experiences. oddly enough i was grinning ear to ear though.

The trailerability was definitely in my thoughts. I looked at the ensigns. I kinda have competing needs. I want to be able to have at least 3 to four for the weekend, in the cockpit capabilities and headroom, with galley and all that. So the weekenders and ensigns great for the cockpit size, not so much on the headroom, and hence settled into the 27 or thirty. It would still be cramped, but doable i thought.

The tritons are really nice boats, like i said, it was mainly that i liked the aesthetics of the alberg and bristols more, which is purely a personal thing. I definitely havent ruled them out, with the wealth of information on them, they are very enticing.

Thoughts on a cutter rig for light air? Or just light air strategies in general on these boats? The last club i went to the 30s spent an awful lot of time at the dock while the 27s below actually sailed.

Case · Post by **Case** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:16 pm

I've looked all around at all types of sailboats for fun...

I love classic sailboats. But I have noted that most of them do not have high SA/Ds. I sail Fizz, a Sea Sprite 23 which is an Alberg design that predates the Ensign but is about the same size. It moves very well in light airs and I passed lots of of 30 plus foot sailboats in winds under 10 knots. I really like the light air performance of the Sea Sprite so its a bitter pill to know that if I wanted something bigger, I probably will go to a more modern design. The Sea Sprite 23 SA/D is only 17.63 but it is small. SA/D is slightly less important for smaller boats and the shape does matter - beamy boats stick more than narrow boats in light airs, too.

Classic sailboats can sail very well in light airs but they often do need HUGE genoas which is a pain to deal with. Do note that light air performance may mean many things to people. What is satisfactory to one might be painful to another. I know from passing many larger sailboats in light air that going to a larger boat that ends up slower in light air than Fizz will be intolerable for me.

I have also noted with interest that I have come across some wooden sailboats that had higher SA/Ds than the comparable plastic classic sailboat but those often end up being more EXPENSIVE to buy (and maintain) than the plastic classic!

- Case

Bluenose · Post by **Bluenose** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:12 pm

Case,

First your Sea Sprite 23, with a SA/D ratio of 17.63, must be a pretty nice light air sailor. And being able to add a 150% genny to your sail plan for a SA/D ratio of 22.6 would make even lighter winds a joy.

I have also enjoy looking, and shopping, for many different types of boats. And I was also disappointed in how low the SA/D ratio was for many of the Classic Plastic CCA type boats. A ratio of 16ish was often the highlight (Contessa 26, Cape Dory 25D & 26, Pearson Ariel for example) but often 15ish and below was the norm

I do think that there are a number of things going on besides just boat size and shape. Many of the Classic Plastics were design with an eye towards the CCA racing rule. Which, from my understanding, resulted in many boats being deliberately under canvased with their working sails to get a better rating. They made up the needed sail area with large genoa's and spinnakers on race day. I have never understood the boast about being able to sail with full sails include a genoa with winds in the teens or more. I find short tacking large headsails in high wind a terrible and fatiguing job.

But I do think that a taller higher aspect ratio rig in a larger boat can offset its relatively smaller sail plan due to getting more sail higher aloft. That has really been my experience upgrading from a 24 footer to my current 30 footer. And I know hat the Tartan 30 (SA/D=16.8), for instance, did come with a tall rig option. So maybe you can maintain your aesthetic roots and performance needs with a future upgrade.

And of course there is always the option of a major rig change.

ghostwriter247 · Post by **ghostwriter247** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:28 am

Well from what ive read online and elsewhere these boats like 15 degrees of heel, so really im looking to be able to get to that in light airs. Is that possible without a big cruising spinnaker? Would a cutter rig do it?

I do understand that more sails are less efficient, but i havent been able to find much on cutter rigs. people reccomend them but don't really go into detail about why. As well you see people talk about a hank on inner forestay that could be undone when not in use to save on jib chafe, but once again i didnt see much to support it. Sounds good in theory, wondered how it was in practice.

Can anyone make any reccomendations about someone with good discussions on cutter rigs on old boats? thanks.

I saw some pictures of the sea sprite. very pretty boat.

Bluenose · Post by **Bluenose** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:02 am

ghostwriter247 wrote:Can anyone make any reccomendations about someone with good discussions on cutter rigs on old boats? thanks.

I have often found some very thoughtful and interesting discussions on Sailnet about sailing and rig design. One person in particular whose posts I have enjoyed reading is Jeff_H. He can be very critical of some older designs, and modern as well, so read at your own risk.

Here are a few of the topics that I have saved and reread:

Fractional Rig vs. Mast Head Rig
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailboat- ... d-rig.html

Long versus short overhangs
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/sailboat- ... hangs.html

Motoring to sailing ratio vs performance.......
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-d ... mance.html

Sloop, Cutter or Ketch
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-revi ... ketch.html

Sloop vs. Fractional Sloop vs. Cutter
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-revi ... utter.html

I am not just referencing Sailnet and Jeff_H because he likes my type of boat. Here was his gloves off review of my old Bluenose Sloop.

Ok, how about a McVay Bluenose Sloop? Jeff_H, anyone?
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-revi ... nyone.html

As I mentioned you have to be toughed skin to read some of these threads. But I found plenty of value to go with the modest slights about my baby.

Cheers and Happy Reading, Bill

ghostwriter247 · Post by **ghostwriter247** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:05 am

Many thanks blue nose. Sometimes the search option returns too much information and in the same repsect its so useful. Ive read alot of Jeff H's posts he certainly seems to know his stuff.

I appreciate you helping me narrow it down.

ghostwriter247 · Post by **ghostwriter247** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:57 pm

That was some good reading. I forgot how scathing jeff can be in a nice kind of way. They sure do get their hackles up over their!

Bluenose · Post by **Bluenose** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:06 pm

Yea, it can be a bit challenging when someone criticizes a boat that you own or love. In my case Jeff had extensive experience in Atlantics, Luder L16 and the like. In addition his background is in the field of yacht design and building. So even if we made different choices I felt there was value in his experiences and opinions.

His strong criticism of the Shields, and their like, is their low freeboard and big cockpit. They often flood and sink. And since a number of them have, I kept that idea in mind for Bolero and I believe she is far less likely to flood and sink that a conventional Shields.

In addition he was the one that really brought home to me the value in having a fractional rigged boat. I have found his knowledge and experiences spot on that topic.

The idea of criticism is a bit ironic sometimes. You can be on you home forum talking about your beloved class of boat, whatever it is. Topics come up about the challenges, hobby horsing in chop, too much weather helm, whatever. But if someone like Jeff_H summarizes his list of favorite boats and tosses out the same criticisms all heck breaks loose.

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:07 pm

London Goes to Sea is a great book that details the true cost of ownership and feelings about whether a 27 foot boat is "big enough". The boat's a Cape Dory 27 too, which is a honey of a boat in my mind.

http://www.amazon.com/London-Goes-Sea-R ... 1574091751

ghostwriter247 · Post by **ghostwriter247** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:57 pm

The cape dorys are very nice. I love reading the books that sneak in the costs into the tale. tanya aebis voyage was a real eye opener on how much maintenance she did and though she doesnt go over the costs if you've hung out on a few boards its easy enough to see how it builds up, she pulled the engine what 3 times...maybe 4? really brings it home in real world terms.

Plastic Classic Forum

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just to be cruel......

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Alberg 35 boat porn.

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