Engine instruments

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:33 pm

I want to build a new engine instrument panel before spring. Anyone know of a good source for engine instruments?

I am not limited by marine suppliers with their ubiquitous marine premium charges but as with anything else, what the boat wants the boat gets.

What the heck, how about suggestions for necessary instruments for my Atomic Four?

At a minimum I am thinking,

Tachometer
Hourmeter
Oil pressure guage
Coolant temperature
Voltmeter (preferably digital in my case)
Ammeter (again digital might be nice)

Then there are the cool instruments and fine tuning stuff like

Fuel flow meters
Cylinder head temps
Oil temps
Fuel/Air ratios
Oil pressure buzzer
Digital/ Graphing Engine Analyzers?...

Any suggestions?

At the moment I am leaning towards an aluminum panel (painted) mounted at the rear of the cockpit where I currently have a large square hole from a removed hatch cover. I occasionally think about having the instruments forward on the bridge deck but I am afraid of kicking them when passing through the companionway (I am clumsy) and from a standing height I really can't read them any better than the back of the cockpit location.

For those familiar with the Triton, I think I will use the original electrical panel location (on the spice rack just to starboard on the rear face of the cabin) for mounting my engine switches (Blower, ignition, accessories/instruments, start, and maybe steaming lights and some sort of low light/LED cabin lighting so I am not stumbling around in the dark looking for the main switches). I have a personal distaste for key switches. Keys break, keys get lost, too much going on in one combined key switch, and security is not the problem on the water that it is in an automobile. I prefer simple toggle switches to power up the various engine systems.

Any thoughts?

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:19 pm

I'd say that very little instrumentation is strictly "necessary" for an A4.

I prefer to classify things in terms of how accessible the instrumentation needs to be.

do you have a tach now? I have one that I temporarily rig from time to time for diagnostic purposes, but I don't have one for daily operation.
I have an oil pressure gauge and an ammeter to measure alternator output, but I really only ever glance at those immediately after startup.

From your list...
Tach, hourmeter, voltmeter could just exist within the engine compartment.
Oil pressure, coolant temperature, and ammeter should probably be within glancing-range, but still don't really need to be in the cockpit, they could be within lean-into-the-companionway glancing range.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:17 pm

So you are suggesting two instrument panels? A primary and a secondary? Then I have to remember to look into two different places which might make it too complicated for me.

You are right in that very little is really needed.

I don't need a tach myself. I want a tach so I can yell up from my berth "Hey, bring that throttle to around 2000 and leave it there!"

I like both volt and ammeter because while either one can fill in for the other, both provide a slightly more complete picture. Plus it makes the instrument panel symmetrically balanced.

I have glanced down and noticed my temps are up. Silly raw water filter is clogged again. Oil pressure just because it is the most critical system on the engine.

You are right though. Less is more with the ole' Atomic Four. (kinda rhymes too). More instrumentation is as much eye candy as anything. Eye candy is good.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:56 am

I was trying to remember the name of those good industrial, heavy-duty engine gauges the other day.

Stewart Warner. www.stewartwarner.com

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:51 pm

Very nice.

Thanks.

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:49 pm

S-W are very very nice. I cheaped-out and bought Isspro. ;P

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:18 pm

Now I just need to locate some instruments with a digital readout for amps and volts. It takes too much effort to figure out if I am charging just slightly, or discharging and whether the alternator is pushing 12.5 volts or 13. Curious minds want to know those sorts of details.

Thanks for the links so far. I wouldn't go wrong with either of them.

-Britton

Edit: or maybe I should stick with simple guages in the cockpit and keep the fancy digital stuff on the main electrical panel in the cabin...

Post by **Tim** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:07 am

bcooke wrote:Now I just need to locate some instruments with a digital readout for amps and volts. It takes too much effort to figure out if I am charging just slightly, or discharging and whether the alternator is pushing 12.5 volts or 13. Curious minds want to know those sorts of details.

Thanks for the links so far. I wouldn't go wrong with either of them.

-Britton

Edit: or maybe I should stick with simple guages in the cockpit and keep the fancy digital stuff on the main electrical panel in the cabin...

I would go with some sort of digital battery monitor in your main panel. There are tons of options out there in terms of overall battery and charging monitoring, from a basic digital voltmeter or ammeter readout to multi-function units that tell you far more than you'd ever want to know. Pricing is all over the place, of course.

For starters, check out Jack Rabbit: www.jrenergy.com

Stick with the basic--yet high quality--analog gauges in the cockpit.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:58 pm

http://www.egauges.com/ has some nice VDOs I've been looking at. The Ocean line is cool with real backlighting.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:17 pm

As I continue my search for the perfect guages I am frustrated by the poor/limited pictures. It is tough to figure out what looks best without having them in your hand I guess.

On their repuation alone I am leaning towards SW. I originaly thought I liked their "Heavy Duty Plus" line best but now I am wondering about their "Deluxe" line. What I like about both of them is the black bezels because there is less to corrode and look ugly (and I am trying to avoid the situation where I am polishing my guages every year). The Heavy Duty line looks like they may be too "clunky" but the subtle green tones are appealing.

On the issue of my proposed engine electrical panel, I am thinking about a Blue Sea, or similar knock-off, switch panel. Anyone know how much current is flowing through the ignition and starter (relay) circuits?

I am waiting for a quote so I had better go and sit down for awhile...

-Britton

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:04 pm

Here is how you do the panel:

http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/

VERY COOL IDEA>

You download the layout software. You upload you design, they make it and it really isn't that expensive!!!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:27 pm

Interesting ...I think ...but from the link I couldn't figure out what the final product looks like or what they really offer nor how much they charge.

I guess you have to download their program to figure it out.

My ideas revolve around a flat panel with holes for switches and guages. I am pretty good at making stuff like that myself. Or am I missing some of the features? Do they fill in the holes with special goodies or something? Do you have a picture of what they did for you?

-Britton

Mark.Wilme · Post by **Mark.Wilme** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:39 pm

Nobody mentioned a fuel gauge. Or do you not consider that engine related ?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:41 pm

All the cool kids have the fuel gauge right at the tank these days.

Mark.Wilme · Post by **Mark.Wilme** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:45 pm

That must be real easy to avoid running out of fuel. OK if you can sail up to your mooring or if you can take your time getting somewhere (I know, I know its supposed to be about the journey but getting home Sunday evening is sometimes important regardless of what the wind is doing)

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:22 pm

bcooke wrote:Interesting ...I think ...but from the link I couldn't figure out what the final product looks like or what they really offer nor how much they charge.

I guess you have to download their program to figure it out.

My ideas revolve around a flat panel with holes for switches and guages. I am pretty good at making stuff like that myself. Or am I missing some of the features? Do they fill in the holes with special goodies or something? Do you have a picture of what they did for you?

-Britton

I downloaded the software a while back and never had the panel made......hint...the software allows you to design your own layout and see how it would look.

The pricing is done in the software and it really was minimal especially for a run of 1 with anodizing and lettering engraved on it.

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:04 pm

Ric in Richmond wrote:Here is how you do the panel:

http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/

VERY COOL IDEA>

You download the layout software. You upload you design, they make it and it really isn't that expensive!!!

Ah, that could be just the ticket for a custom electrical panel... one that has your boat's logo silkscreened in the corner, and a sweet lines drawing of the vessel with LEDs to tell you which exterior lights are on!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:25 am

I actually did go back and downloaded the program and played with it a bit. I can see that it could be quite useful but in my case I just need a square piece with holes drilled through for guages. I don't have anything special planned.

As for fuel guages, I went with a mechanical guage mounted on top of the tank. I really don't need minute to minute updates on my fuel level and with the amount of sloshing I am expecting it wouldn't be terribly useful that way anyway. The guage can be seen by opening the cockpit sole access hatch - something I need to do before starting the engine as the fuel shutoff valve is located there as well. On my old tank in the starboard locker a short stick stuck down the filler neck worked just fine to measure the fuel level. Now the filler hose curls around a bit so a guage of some sort was necessary. Maybe an electrical guage would be nice but mechanicals are just that much more reliable and my experience suggests that electrical guages have a tendency to be inaccurate.

I try not to be too dependent on fuel anyway. Generally, I use a conservative time x fuel burn estimate and leave a few gallons for bad math.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:12 am

Mark.Wilme wrote:Nobody mentioned a fuel gauge. Or do you not consider that engine related ?

Electric fuel gauges are notoriously inaccurate and unreliable. Still, they can be handy for high-level checks of your level. I don't think one should ever rely entirely on an electric fuel gauge, though.

Mechanical gauges on the tank are nice if the tank happens to be located somewhere convenient, but in many installations this is not the case, so such a gauge would not be very practical. In Britton's case, the fuel tank--and gauge--is easily accessed though a hatch in the cockpit sole.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:33 pm

I prefer an analog fuel tank guage. Its called a "stick." Of course you need a straight shot from the fill to the tank, but it is always reliable! :)

Summersdawn · Post by **Summersdawn** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:54 pm

Some friends of mine used the "stick" method when they borrowed there Dad's Bayliner to head out to the Broken Group. They had half a tank when they left, which they assumed was plenty of fuel. They ran out before they even reached there destination. The bottom of the tank matched the bottom of the hull (a fairly deep-vee), so when the stick showed "half" it was more like an eighth.

Of course with the relatively flat bottoms on most sailboat fuel tanks, it is a non-issue.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:58 pm

My last tank was the same way, the bottom narrowed so when the tank was low the level started to drop quite fast which was always a bit alarming.

With a stick it pays to start with an empty tank and put a measured amount of fuel in and 'stick' it. Then mark the stick or otherwise remember how high on the stick the fuel came to. I did this at about five gallon increments which allowed me to estimate remaining fuel pretty well.

-Britton

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:35 pm

Buying SW guages has proven frustrating. No one carries a very complete line; just bits and pieces. There are a few dealers around (mostly auto parts stores) with little or no online presence and the nearest two are a frustrating drive into downtown Boston for me. Even from them I would have to special order anything. I am waiting for the official catalog now.

On the plus side, I stopped by my fuel and water tank welder and he practically gave away the aluminum for the panels. 1/8" stock is overkill I think but at $10 cut and fit I didn't complain.

-Britton

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:08 am

I notice Don Moyer has the SW gauges for sale on his web site. Don't think it matters that you might not have an A4. :)

http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/shop ... ilder.html

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:07 pm

Good link. I never even thought about going to Moyer but they look like a good option. I just got an SW catalog today. SW makes a lot of different styles that neither Moyer nor anyone else seems to carry off-the-shelf. It seems the selection is a bit random on all the online resources I have found. I am probably going to select the style I want and special order them.

-Britton

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:18 pm

Anyone have a rule of thumb for sizing the ammeter?

I see Moyer sells an ammeter with a +- 30 amp range which is just about the max output of the standard A4 alternator. At some point I will undoubtedly upgrade to a 50 amp alternator so using Moyer's logic I could get the -60-0-60 meter and be just fine. Or is there more to this?

-Britton

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:00 am

FWIW,

Stewart Warner and its listed dealers have been pretty non responsive to my email requests. Curiously, SW's dealer network seems to consist of just a few small out-of-the-way automotive parts shops with no internet presence. Most of my normal sources carry just a few random items from SW and nothing like the full line of products they produce.

In any event, I found a company that carries most of SW's product line and has an online catalog. The company is a Jaguar parts dealership in California and so far seems pretty up front.

www.xks.com

Oh, and SW doesn't make a tachometer I am interested in so I am getting one from one of SW's sister companies (Datcom - anyone know their products?) from a dealer in Canada.

It wasn't supposed to be this hard...

-Britton

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:08 am

btw, I was just reviewing this thread and since my new interest is next year's electrical upgrade (new installation really) I clicked the JR Marine link.

Is that the correct link? All they advertise is machine parts for boats- nothing electrical.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:36 am

bcooke wrote:btw, I was just reviewing this thread and since my new interest is next year's electrical upgrade (new installation really) I clicked the JR Marine link.

Is that the correct link? All they advertise is machine parts for boats- nothing electrical.

Oops. I don't know what I was thinking when I posted the link, but it was wrong.

I've gone back and corrected it in the origina post, but here it is:

www.jrenergy.com