Cabin sole decision time

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:57 am

I think it is finally time to put in a permanent cabin sole.

I have a critical choice to make today or tomorrow:

1.) Teak and holly plywood

2.) Real wood

2a.) If real wood then what would go well with the teak veneered saloon interior

I have never heard Tim complain about his teak and holly plywood.
Nathan's sole is beautiful and unique-ish.
I am not sure what others have done.

I assumed real wood would be tougher and more forgiving of a dropped engine starter or something of the like. A local boatbuilder friend swears up and down about the teak and holly plywood. He says it is much tougher than one would think and it is much easier to install. He put it on a working fishing boat 15 years ago and it still looks good. (or so he claims) The plywood has the added benefit of increasing my headroom by about 0.25 inches.

If I go real wood then I am looking for a tough, lightish colored wood. Not blond but lightish to contrast with the teak. Nathan's choice of Red Birch might be nice but of course that has been done already. I am not a big fan of oak. A little bit goes a long way IMHO and I already have a little bit in there (mast beam, supports and trim in the surrounding area)

Any thoughts?

-Britton

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:42 am

Bamboo?

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:10 pm

bcooke wrote: Any thoughts?

Sneak up to Whitefield and remove Nathan's before he gets up there for Spring commissioning?

feetup · Post by **feetup** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:40 pm

I second Peter's suggestion of bamboo, although I'll raise it with a suggestion of a teak or walnut strip kind of the reverse of the standard teak holly, so to speak.
I re-did Aquappella's sole with teak/holly ply and I was pleased at how thick the teak veneer was, and how tight the rest of the plys were. It's pricey but then why go cheap and suffer dissapointment after all that labour.

Feetup

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:48 pm

Bamboo? Does that come in regular planking?

I think I could stroll up to Whitefield with a brass band and not get noticed by Nathan these days. I hear he has a very full plate. His website says he will post full cruise logs when he gets back from his 2007 summer cruise...

The teak and holly ply is nice. It might be easier to install. I am not sure. Price is no object of course.

There are a lot of boats with the teak and holly look, probably because it is a good look. I wouldn't mind being a bit creative and doing something a little different though.

So many choices.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:32 pm

If you want to get a (photo) look at another style, James Baldwin used Iroko strips with black polysulfide between them. I think he was someplace where Iroko was relatively easy to obtain, but of course another wood could be substituted. I've always though it was a great look, and the polysulfide would probably provide a bit more "grip" than a smooth sole (although there is Ultimate Sole varnish also).

I feel like I've read an article about this job (and you've probably read this already too ) but I can't find it now. There are numerous photos of the boat on his website www.atomvoyages.com. Below is a photo and a bit of text from this page on his website (of course there's tons of other great stuff there too:

http://atomvoyages.com/projects/atomprojects2.htm

"To get an effect similar to a teak deck, I covered the plywood sole with strips of African iroko and black polysulfide sealant."

Charlie J might chime in as well. He and Laura made a sole from (just) teak strips and oiled it. I've sailed on their boat and can say that the sole is very nice. Definitely not slippery.

And neither of the above treatments have the ubiquitousness of "teak and holly" plywood (not that there's anything wrong with it, but you were speaking of using something a bit more unusual).

This isn't wood, but cork soles are fairly common in Holland (also cork non-skid above decks and on the floors of houses).

Rachel

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:25 pm

I am liking the bamboo.

The local exotic woods dealer chastised me for wasting expensive-hard-to-get teak for an interior project. He had some pretty wild suggestions and then I went next door to look at bamboo flooring. (You know, zebrawood is kinda cool...)

I know I have said I was looking for a 'dark-ish' interior look but...

The cherry panels with vertical bamboo flooring and semi-gloss white cabin liner makes for a very nice, light, welcoming look that still has that comfortable 'woody' feel. I may have just converted.

-Britton

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:48 pm

I heard a rumor-- only a rumor-- that a lot of folks who went the bamboo route for the flooring in their homes over the last 6 or so years, were dissapointed because of the tendency of the bamboo planks to "curl" or cup over time.

Can anyone lend any credance to this rumor? I was thinking of maybe using bamboo myself.

suntreader · Post by **suntreader** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:15 pm

I have been planning to use bamboo for my Islander when the time comes. I like the light and modern look, and it is very inexpensive, check out Lumber Liquidators:

http://www.lumberliquidators.com/home.jsp

They've usually got bamboo for $2 a square foot. I have heard conflicting reports on how it handles high moisture water-front type environments, but I'm willing to give it a go. The other drawback is I have heard it is pretty soft and dents easily.

On the plus side, its cheap, looks good, easy to install, has a nice non-slip footing, doesn't need finish, and, again, its cheap.

David

feetup · Post by **feetup** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:25 pm

I would be a little skeptical of putting ANY flooring down on the sole of a boat without adaquate fastening. A lot of these engineered floors are a clip-together glueless system and as such if there is a moisture difference front to back (or I guess that should be top to bottom) there is bound to be cupping. A lot of these engineered floors are not much more than a thick veneer on a rather poor ply substrate and I've never had much faith in their ability to remain flat. Solid bamboo would most likely be flat sawn, not radially sawn so could cup if subjected to differential moisture content, but I'm not sure since bamboo is actually a grass not a tree, and the cell structure is entirely different. Grasses grow from the root, trees grow from the top and on the outside layer hence becoming somewhat laminar. Bamboo veneer laminated on top of wood could definately warp and cup.

Feetup

Triton 185 · Post by **Triton 185** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:39 pm

Have you considered using wood from the Agathis family.

I build some exterior doors about 8 years ago that had white oak frames and Malesian Agathis raised panels. I let the doors weather and never put any finish on them. The white oak oxodized/bleached, but the Agathis looks almost as good as the day I built them. In terms of colouring, it is yellow or orange brown and would make a nice contrast to the teak.

In comparison of density in Kg/m3.....Teak is about 630 to 650 and Agathis is about 560.

Aside from the Malesian Agathis you can by Kauri, which is the New Zealand version of the same.

Good luck on your project. I will be doing same before long.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:01 pm

Kauri, now that is something I hadn't thought of. An endangered rare species on the opposite side of the globe... :-) I have no idea what the Agathis family of woods look like. I will check it out.

The bamboo I was looking at is cut into 1/4" strips and then laminated together creating a 1/2 inch "plank" which then had dovetails cut into them on the edges. There is a lot of glue in the process and I wouldn't think moisture would be a huge concern but I will check it out. I will be varnishing it too.

I am fickle and today I am thinking cherry interior. Very nice at a fraction of the cost. Plus, my supplier won't chew me out for wasting teak on interior projects...

Thanks,

-Britton

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:39 pm

Britton,
I put down a bamboo floor in my baby's room this last winter using stuff similar to what you've described. It sure seems to be pretty tough stuff, I've pondered taking the extra box and putting a new sole in my boat too...(except that would reduce headroom even more :-( )

Triton 185 · Post by **Triton 185** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:08 am

Kauri, now that is something I hadn't thought of. An endangered rare species on the opposite side of the globe... :-)

Britton,

Kauri is not an endangered species - nor is it rare. Yes, it has had historic pressures due to human over consumption, but in New Zealand many of these forests are now being managed in a more sustainable manner. (I find it hard to point fingers due to some of our “not so favorable” North American practices)

I purchase the Malaysian variety of Agathis from the Bacon Veneer Company. The logs they purchase come from trees that have died before being harvested and that is what I like about the wood. These trees are bled by humans for the tree sap that is used for medicinal and other applications, such as making adhesive. Once the tree has lived to old age and dies, it is harvested for timber.

The amount of wood you need to replace the “holly” is minor, the bdft price is very reasonable, it is easy to work and it has some of the favourable characteristics of cherry…check it out if you want.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:50 am

Well, you are right, I don't know much about Kauri. The fact that it only grows on one little part of one little island had me thinking it was rare. I seem to remember the New Zealanders putting restrictions on Kauri harvesting but that was like 15-20 years ago when I was there.

Aha! So Kauri is a member of the Agathis family. Now I am getting it.

[Edit] a quick stop at Wikipedia confirms that Kauri is not endangered. However due to heavy logging and burning only about 4% of the pre-english-colonization amounts of Kauri remain.

I am liking the bamboo option. Trendy, exotic, and it looks nice too.

I am still looking though.

-Britton

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:44 am

How about maple? Nice and light and quite beautiful (IMHO).

feetup · Post by **feetup** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:02 pm

The disadvanage with maple is it's tendency toward rot, and dark staining if allowed to get wet. Very poor resistance to mildew also. Very hard and strong though. Oak would be even worse, with it's tendency to stain blue/black when wet. The reason teak is the choice of the ages is its tremendous stability when wet, and resistance to rot. Let's face it, unless you seal it VERY carefully, the sole will get at least moist at times. Any thing that stains when wet would be suspect. On the other hand, black and white checkerd vinyl won't stain and would be very unique, but I think is taking the PLASTIC part of classic a little too far.
It's a tough decision to make, since the look of a boat is so heavily influenced by the sole.

Feetup

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:10 pm

Of course maybe I need to remember that if I don't like it or it gets damaged in a few years I can simply take it up and replace it. If I do it once I can do it again when my mood changes. I might be bored with no projects someday too...

-Britton

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:18 am

bcooke wrote: I might be bored with no projects someday too...

-Britton

Umm, surrre, yeah right. Boats often get to the point they require no maintenance. ;)

Triton 185 · Post by **Triton 185** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:54 pm

I am liking the bamboo option. Trendy, exotic, and it looks nice too.

If you do decide to go the bamboo route, then do yourself a favour and consider using a mask when machining it. The dust can be an irritant to some people. Same thing with coconut - not that I'm suggesting using that......hmmm

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:23 am

Side question.

What is the best finish for a teak plywood sole (no holly strips....bummer!) that has only stain on it right now?

It looks dry and tired.

Don't want it to be slippery or hard to keep up with!!

All the options above make me want to rip it out!!!

Thanks in advance.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:45 am

Either oil or Ultimate Sole come to mind. CharlieJ has a teak (non-plywood) sole that's kept oiled, so he could probably give you a good idea of how hard it is to keep up (I don't think it's too demanding). I haven't used Ulimate Sole (yet), but it's a varnish-like product that is somehow glossy but not slippery. I have no idea how they do that.

Dave W-42 posted a photo here sometime back after he applied Ultimate Sole to his companionway steps. I wonder how he's found it to hold up?

I'm sure we could give more thoughtful advice if we had below-decks photos of your boat :D

Rachel

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:55 pm

At the risk of becoming an apostate, I have covered my old pink fiberglass sole with a layer of drideck and grass carpet. At cost plus they sell woven grass carpet in one foot by 8 foot strips for $10 dollars a strip. The triton cabin sole takes two. I replace them each season. I like the grass carpet cause it grips well under foot, it has a pleasant odor when wet, it hides the crumbs, and it is warm. As I said, I am aware of other members of this forums feelings about carpet on boats, and I am ready for their disdain. Be aware that I have not combed my hair in three days and last nights dinner and beverage still send their aroma from my shirt up into my nose. In other words I got my hobo jones going, and have no self respect left except an incipient curmudgeonliness. At least it is not that green astro turf glued down with 5200!

r

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:27 pm

Robert, your opinions, however unorthodox or otherwise disagreeable are always welcome on any thread I start. :-)

I like the grass carpet cause it grips well under foot, it has a pleasant odor when wet, it hides the crumbs, and it is warm

All very good reasons.

Be aware that I have not combed my hair in three days and last nights dinner and beverage still send their aroma from my shirt up into my nose. In other words I got my hobo jones going, and have no self respect left except an incipient curmudgeonliness.

You will be in good company when you come by to visit. BYOS
(Bring Your Own Sander)

Peter wrote:Bamboo?

Peter wins the suggestion contest. I really liked the idea and ordered the materials. I will post pictures in a couple of weeks when it is all in place.

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:59 pm

Damn. Grass carpet sounds like a winner to me!

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:53 am

Britton wrote:Peter wins the suggestion contest. I really liked the idea and ordered the materials. I will post pictures in a couple of weeks when it is all in place.

Wait, Wait ! .... I was only kidding about Bamboo ;-)
I'll stick to my rug, nice and warm on the bare feet in the morning, and when it needs cleaning I just roll it up and shake it out over the side.

Although I will admit, if I had more headroom, a wood floor would look better.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:28 pm

Although with all that gorgeous sapele plywood your boat hardly needs any more wood. I love those Albin interiors.

R.

Noah · Post by **Noah** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:23 pm

I just put down Bamboo in my bathroom and it seems to be working pretty well. It was 5/8" 3 layer with a T&G groove. The 3 layers are all contrasting layers, two "flat" and one on edge. I got it at Lowes and a 23sq feet was $60. It would be pretty easy to glue down I suppose.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:46 pm

I found some stuff that was recomended by an architect friend of mine. A little more costly than what you found at Lowes but 'guaranteed' to be 'the good stuff'.

Peter, I like the bamboo suggestion. I don't like the carpet one. You only have to step on a wet carpet once to learn to hate it... :-)

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:11 pm

Britton the Bamboo will look great. I'm a big fan of the light colored wood on board, a lot of mahogany and teak makes for a dark interior. Light and airy...

Speaking of light and airy, I'm wondering about using airex foam, or some other easily worked core material to shape the sole. Well... shape it in situ until it drops into place, then glassing it on the bench, and skinning that in some thin wood strips.

(Weight conscious much? hehehe!)

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:04 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you, PLYBOO.

(With a sample of cherry for contrast)

Bamboo plywood which comes in 4x8 sheets, 3/4 inch thick. Both flat and vertical grain is available. What I have is the vertical grain but both look pretty good. The flat screams "Bamboo", the vertical is a bit more subtle.

Also, the vertical grain comes in solid or 3-ply. The 3-ply was recomended to me as being more dimensionaly stable.

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:18 pm

Now you'll have to do caned locker doors, a grass curtain into the v-berth, and a couple of tiki torches to the cockpit...

feetup · Post by **feetup** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:22 pm

I'm afraid you might have to trade in your rum for saki!

Feetup
After all's been said and done, there's a lot more said than done.

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Cabin sole decision time

Cabin sole decision time

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