Teak & Holly Sole for 38' 1990 Pearson

[jerseyman26]

I purchased my Pearson 38' Invicta last May and it's in great shape but the interior floor is showing some wear and age and want to bring the floor back to it's original non water stained, non dented original look. The boat deserves it and more so, I think I do too. From looking online at the different sole materials it appears mine is teak with holly but not sure if it's a veneer. I know it's on plywood but not sure what kind. Not sure if the plywood matters so much for replacement as long as it is suitable for using on a boat. Has anyone on this forum tackled the replacement of the sole of a 1990 Pearson or the like? What material did you use, where did you purchase it, what did it cost, what did you use to finish it such as a varathane, varnish, etc?

Joe from Jersey

[Rachel]

Hi Joe, and welcome to the forum.

I know, these are questions instead of answers, but....

1) I'm curious about your boat. I think of the Pearson Invicta as a Tripp-designed 1960s centerboarder and yet I see yours is a 1990. I know there was in Invicta II, but I still thought it was from much earlier. I always like to learn more about boat models/designs though.

2) Since you are asking about replacing the sole, I would like to know how the sole in your boat is set up now. What it's made of, what shape it is (as in, how wide, etc.), what sort of floors are supporting it - that sort of thing. Could you tell a bit more about it, and/or post some photos? (We love photos!)

Thank you,
Rachel

[jerseyman26]

Rachel,
I will attach the information on the boat that I have. As far as I know it is an Invicta designed by Bill Shaw and the 1990 was the last year this or any pearson was built.

The floor has about 10 sections separated by fiberglass supports running fore to aft. The only floor section with support from underneath is the section at the bottom of the companionway stairs.

I don't have photos of the floor but will take some when I am at the boat next time which should be soon.

I just looked at what I have on the boat and it may not be an Invicta afterall. I tried to attach the file but it seems very few files are allowed on this site so I can't attach. I converted htm to pdf and attach but that wasn't allowed. What files do they allow on this site?

Joe

[Hirilondë]

I am guessing that you have a Pearson 38

The Invicta and Invicta II were designed by William Tripp and built in the 60s.

Your boat has teak and maple plywood panels. Real holly can be found, and is whiter than maple, but when an amber varnish is used the both yellow to where the difference is virtually not noticeable. I think you are in for a shock when you price this stuff out.

[jerseyman26]

Hirilondë,

It was brought to my attention several times today that i was mistaken and I have a Pearson 38' and not an Invicta. I don't mind being corrected when being wrong in this case is much to my advantage because my boat was not built in the 60's.

I haven't priced this material out yet but will soon. I have read some people using marine plywood with a veneer. I'm not crazy about this idea myself having been in construction over 20 years and appreciate crafsmanship. I'm guessing that the plywood is teak with holly inlay. There are companies that make it exactly the same way but as you said I'm sure I will be shocked at the cost. I would also try to use a non yellowing finish to keep the colors true. Only thing I can see with this would be the rest of the boat is a little weathered and the floor would look out of place.

Joe

[Rachel]

... I have a Pearson 38' and not an Invicta.... in this case is much to my advantage because my boat was not built in the 60's.

Now, now. Some of us like our Plastic Classics. We should start a forum! Oh wait... ;)

On the sole: I have spent time on boats that had a "real" wood sole made up of Teak and (I think it was) Maple - glued up and about 3/4" thick. That was quite nice.

The teak and holly type plywood does look nice when fresh and varnished, but I'm kind of liking other types of wooden soles now. I guess I'm a little tired of the teak and holly type ply, and then too it kind of rubs me the wrong way that the whole point of teak and holly, as I understand it, is being (literally) glossed over.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that originally the point was that the teak was softer (and somewhat non-skid of course) and the holly harder, and so the teak would wear down and leave strips of the hard holly standing proud, thus providing natural gripping "cleats." Glossy varnish looks really nice and is easy to clean, however if you are in sporty conditions it can be darned slippery. Some varnishes (Ultimate Sole, for example, which went out of business but may have been resurrected) are non-skid while looking glossy.

So, I'm thinking that if I were in the market for a new sole, especially if I were using sheet goods, I might go for some other type of wood or at least not the teak and holly pattern.

I'm not a carpenter by any means though, so I would trust Hirilonde's or other more carpenterly people's judgment more than mine.

[Hirilondë]

I have read some people using marine plywood with a veneer. I'm not crazy about this idea myself having been in construction over 20 years and appreciate crafsmanship.

Why? If you are going to use plywood this is the best you will find. You will find poplar plywood with a Teak and Holly/Maple strip veneer, and okoume marine with the same strip veneer. The poplar core plywood might be fine for less vulnerable applications, but hardly a good idea for a cabin sole which will be getting wet often.

I'm guessing that the plywood is teak with holly inlay.

I have never seen nor even heard of teak plywood. The cost would be astronomical. Moderately priced production boats like Pearsons opt for much cheaper materials.

I have found, and made my own Teak and Holly sole material by gluing 1/4" solid wood to a 1/2" marine plywood. This results in the strength and stability of plywood with a solid wood surface. It is labor and material expensive though. Hinckley has used there own glue up of solid Teak and Holly. The Holly is actually an X in cross section and fits into slots in the adjacent Teak strips and revealing just the thin strip between planks. These Xs serve as splines to strengthen the glue joints as well as the aesthetic result. I have found this method used on some Aldens as well.

Money, time, skills and personal preferences will all contribute to what you choose. Like Rachel has mentioned, there are other choices than Teak and Holly. With the skyrocketing price of Teak these days people are considering other choices more often.

[jerseyman26]

Dave,

Thank you for the insight. I have a much better idea of what to look for.

Joe

[mitiempo]

If you use solid wood strips in any form, cherry is an attractive wood, harder than teak and about 20% of the price of teak.

[Quetzalsailor]

I second all of Hirilonde's comments.

Make your own if you don't mind the work or the time. You can buy plantation grown Teak, from Costa Rica, from Diamond Hardwoods: http://www.diamondtropicalhardwoods.com/ I bought rough stock from 'em. Talk to Kevin. As it happens, the stock I bought was from young trees so the grain was not nearly so tight or as oily as Southeast Asian stuff. I used it for the sole in our old Morgan 27, epoxied direcly down to the bottom of the boat.

Quetzal's sole is Teak and Maple, 5/8" solids; the Maple is milled with double tongues, so it looks cross-shaped in section. The Teak is grooved. The span is about 12" so it's plenty stiff. The sole is glued up into about 6" widths.

The chief advantage of Poplar is that it's cheap. It's soft, brittle, not dimensionally stable, and not rot resistant; other than that, it's a great wood.

Holly is not very rot resistant, either. Contrasting strips can be White Oak, Maple, Ash.

Can't go wrong matching your interior wood. Seems to me that the Pearson 38 (very deeply veed hull w/centerboard) we looked at had a Cherry interior. Cherry and Maple would be lovely on the sole.

If you take Hirilonde's suggestion and glue 1/4" veneer down to plywood, using better plywood is a better idea. However, the plywood can be completely sealed in epoxy. Remember that neither Sapele nor Okoume are rot resistant, either; they are both treated to meet BS 1088.

[Rachel]

Now that you mention it, Quetzal, I remember that the "solid" wood sole I was talking about was teak and ash. I said teak and maple, but in the back of my mind I had a feeling that wasn't right. I knew it wasn't holly though, even though it looked basically like it.

If you are going to varnish or epoxy coat, then you wouldn't really be getting the full benefit of teak anyway, to my mind (the non-skid properties), unless you just want it for the way it looks (which is valid too).

[jerseyman26]

I do have to admit I never thought I would have so much input on something like this. Don't get me wrong I think it's great. All the input has shed a new light on what others are thinking about for their boats and the different materials used for what I think is a simple project. I know it maybe simple but done wrong can be a disaster and cost me twice as much. I know this.

I do have some comments though about what was said about the base material. Other than IPE or Iron Wood is there really a wood that doesn't rot over time? Hardwoods are considered rot resistant but not rot proof. Even when chemicals are added to treat wood against rot they are consisdered rot resistant but still are not classified rot proof. Does this make sense?

So, when I am looking for the core-base for the sole I would like a ply made out of a hardwood that is glued with exterior grade glue and seal the crap out of it to resist rot? By the time the wood shows any signs of rotting the boat will have sunk off the coast somewhere or I will most likely be long gone or both happen simultaneously.

I did find a company that has a teak plywood with holly and a tropical hardwood core. http://www.boulterplywood.com/MarinePlywood_4.htm

[Richincident]

I was pretty impressed by the look of bamboo, which is supposedly pretty tough and rot proof. Anyone ever try that?

I have been amazed by the resistance of teak to almost anything--that would always be a great choice in my mind, but is teak plywood as resistant as "real" teak?

[mitiempo]

It is for the first 1/32" anyway!

[Richincident]

1/32" should be more than enough.............

I am now happy that my boat has fiberglass sole. Unfortunately it had a linoleum like substance above that, and so far I have been trying a variety of different rubber-like flooring materials above the (intact and sturdy) sole.

I wonder if there are any sources for better planking so you don't need to mess with plywood. It WILL get pretty wet down there.

[mitiempo]

To build a sole of solid wood, epoxy down strips, either butted or with a gap. The gap can be filled with white or black tinted epoxy. Tim uses black and I prefer solid wood without the gap. As long as the wood is covered well with epoxy (thickened) underneath and between the planks water is not an issue. The top surface is sanded and covered with 2 or 3 coats of clear epoxy. Then varnish of your choice. Much more durable than the teak plywood with its super thin teak veneer that is so easily damaged. And any wood you like - teak, cherry, maple, oak or whatever. The strips should be 1/4" thick or so.

[Quetzalsailor]

Bamboo is the darling of the Green set. It grows quickly and replenishes itself readily, as compared to the various lumber species. One negative the Greens never mention is the embodied energy in growing and making bamboo into useful products, as well as the shipping. Surely the glue is not 'green'.

I don't think the stuff is very pretty; it's bland in color and texture, and the pieces are necessarily quite small before they're glued up into useful sizes.

As for using any veneered product for floors, I don't. Neither for floors in houses or boats. It's OK for retail, since the store will reinvent itself and renew the finishes quite often. No veneer will stand up to abuse and the inevitable refinishing; you might get one try before sanding through.

Thus, all the products and methods which give you at least 1/8" or more thickness of veneer are to be preferred for floors, and soles. Even 1/16" would be far better than the usual laminate products.

[One Way David]

I just gotta get in on this. I like bamboo. ditto the comments that by the time it is processed and at the shop for production I doubt that anyone would categorize it as "green". There are almost as many varieties of bamboo as there are personalities in humans. Not all, in fact few, are suitable for a given project. For instance, bamboo fly rods are made from one variety that grows in one area of China. Others won't do. I know that in Japan it is used in bath houses that remain wet year round. I just don't know how often they replace it.

I once started a bamboo garden. Had several varieties. My neighbors hated me. They didn't think much of bamboo being green and all. Think Kudzu in the south.

I have mentioned hedge before and this winter will rebuild the interior of my Ensign with it as the structural componants. It's color is not stable. It starts bright orange-yellow and with time darkens to a deep mahogany. I have unearthed hedge logs that have been laying in the ground covered with mud and debris for 40 years and milled it into wood that is perfectly functional. I have hedge fence posts that were set 50 years ago that are still standing.

Black Locust is a second cousin to hedge and I have seen it last almost as long outside. Darkens also but not as much as hedge.

I think misquite is a cousin to locust (thorns, flowers and seeds are similar) but haven't used it as much. Color varies from light brown to dark. Wonder what it would be like and how durable.

Dave.



Dave.

[Hirilondë]

Black Locust is a second cousin to hedge and I have seen it last almost as long outside. Darkens also but not as much as hedge.

I don't know about it's relationship to Hedge, but it is surely a hard, rot resistant and very sturdy wood. Almost every Concordia has some on it. Some have coach houses, cockpit combings and other exterior parts made of it and used in various combinations with Mahogany. I don't know what the rhyme or reason for each one having different amounts of each and in different places was. I can only guess it was based purely on what was at hand at the time each was built. I built a replacement focs'l door for "Feather" out of the stuff. It machines quite well for such a hard wood and glues up well. Probably one of it's best uses is wooden cleats. The large fore deck cleat, some cockpit cleats and some mast cleats on Concordias are made of Black Locust. I don't know how it would look unfinished as a non-skid sole, but would probably make a good one.

[One Way David]

I guess I chose a misleading turn of the phrase. I don't know the genetics of either and was calling BL a second cousin to hedge in function.

I have seen BL unfinished and it, too, will darken with age (if exposed to light).

Dave.

[Ceasar Choppy]

Does hedge = osage orange?

[ILikeRust]

Bamboo is NOT rot-resistant. In fact, in my experience, it rots pretty quickly when left wet. Being in central Virginia, it grows around here like a weed (a very huge, very strong, very aggressive and fast-growing weed).

My wife and I like it, though - a stand of bamboo is pretty - but youv'e got to work at it to keep it under control.

Anyhow, if you cut it down and lay the stalks on the ground, you'll find that in two years, youv'e got a bunch of bits and pieces of bamboo stalks and the rest has rotted to mush.

Remember, bamboo is a grass, not a tree.

[One Way David]

Does hedge = osage orange?

Yes. Hedge, osage orange, bois d'arc et al.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maclura_pomifera

Wiki mentions a "small..." There is one a little west of Hot Springs Arkansas that is about a city block. The canopy keeps bowing over and rooting into another tree. Having grown up in West Texas where anything over knee high is called a tree, "small" is relative.

Re bamboo. I miss my bamboo. I had about 6 varieties in Memphis. I liked it, my neighbors didn't. I found the same issue when I tried to cure it. I've always wondered how the asian import kitchen and bath acessories sold so well, considering.

Dave.