Flirting with the Dark Side

[heartofgold]

I'm may not have yet passed the point of no return, but I have had a brush with the dark side. I have spent the past few days contemplating purchasing a Triton. I posted a pic or two a few months ago, but for some reason over the weekend, I was drawn to this boat, an urge I could not easily resist. (It's all your fault, Tim!)

At first glance, doesn't look so bad:


Closer inspection shows that there is significant damage on the surface, but almost none of these scratches penetrate the gel coat. In fact, only a few of them did more than scuff the glass:




The mast did go overboard, and some significant, but repairable damage occurred:


The real damage shows on deck. All four points of the bow rail punched through the foredeck:

In fact, except for the stern rail, only 3 stanchions did not go through the deck:


The deck is delaminated forward of the cabin top, so I figure it is really not a big deal to rebuild each stanchion point with the deck cut off and being recored.

The interior is trashed, and yes, those fenders are floating:




The owner has a separate buyer for the engine, which is fine with me, as I would want to replace it with a new one anyway. I am considering offering $500. I have a pretty good idea what I am getting into, and I can order most of my supplies and parts at wholesale, so I feel it will be worth what I put into it (though not a penny more).

I look at the potential of this boat, and it makes me feel so powerful! Have I truly become an agent of the evil lord Tim, or is there hope for me.

For all 36 pics of the boat, look here:
http://heartofgoldsails.com/Triton.htm

[Tim]

A project like that is all about time. Time, time time. Without encouraging or discouraging you, I recommend you take a very hard look at how much time you think you have available for such a project, and how much of your life you are willing to devote until the project is actually complete. And then realize that you've almost certainly underestimated.

Projects like this consume you. Few things are more interesting, satisfying, meaningful, frustrating, and even enfuriating. As a personal project for your own use, any Triton is worth buying and improving to your heart's desire. As a vehicle for a potential return on investment, I have yet to figure out how to make it work (for a Triton specifically); time and again, I struggle with hoping to find a way, as I'd like nothing more than to start buying Tritons for this purpose, but I have a real problem seeing how it can be done profitably (even if you discount your time).

The problem with Tritons is this: many (most?) of them are in such downtrodden condition that, to the uninitiated boating public, it masks their true potential and overall value (in terms of the quality of the boat and the sailing experience they provide). It will take a proliferation of significantly improved and upgraded Tritons on the market before this perception can ever change. Perhaps it will eventually happen, but it's not here yet, and I'm not holding my breath.

Buyers seem to want either a project (i.e. cheap) that they can improve and personalize themselves, or else something reasonably well put together and needing little immediate work--but even for this, the typical buyer is just not willing to pay that much (i.e cheap). Buyers with $20,000 to spend (for example) are typically looking at something newer, or larger, or both. People looking at Tritons are thinking in the range of $5,000-$10,000, mostly. This will often buy a boat in reasonable condition and ready to sail, though rarely will there be any sparkle or major improvements.

On occasion, a better-than-average example sells for mid-teens. Boats with this sort of marketable value require new engines, upgraded sails and rigging, good cosmetics, and improved interiors and systems. These upgrades tend to challenge the bottom line, to put it mildly. It's absolutely ridiculous what everything costs, wholesale or not. Considering that there's nothing worth saving on that boat, as far as I can tell, I fear that a comprehensive rebuild and refit will simply cost too much. Doing less than that will reduce costs, but will also substantially reduce the boat's potential value in the end, too, I am afraid.

I hope you try to do something with the boat. Just tread carefully if you have visions of breaking even! I'd enjoy being proven wrong about the value potential, but at least around here, I've not seen enough upward trend in Triton value to support what I think it would take to improve the boat significantely enough to support a high enough value to entertain any real hopes of a profit. Certainly wholesale helps significantely, but even so, it's expensive!

And in no case can the amount of time required to repair and upgrade the boat be returned, financially or otherwise. If you have high personal standards for the quality of work you perform, as I think you do, it makes it next to impossible to cut corners, or use substandard material, or avoid doing something that you should. If only the best will do, then only the best will do...and that costs. A lot.

If you want her for personal use, disregard all of the above and just buy her! $500 is perfectly reasonable.

[Tim]

By the way, the last thing I want to do is sound like a downer. No one wants to see Tritons brought back to good condition more than I do, but at the same time, it would be irresponsible to not point out potential pitfalls along the way, too!

[Peter]

Tim, I'm in agreement with all you say.
BUT ... if you take a different angle and look at the costs of building a boat from scratch, $500 for a hull, complete with galley sink, is quite a bargin.

[bcooke]

I look at the potential of this boat, and it makes me feel so powerful! Have I truly become an agent of the evil lord Tim, or is there hope for me.

That depends on your next move. Tim is right, IMHO, there is no hope of making money by rebuilding a Triton. If that is your motive, start with a Hinckley or Concordia or something with name value. Tritons are, unfortunately, intrinsically linked with cheapskates.

If you want a boat built to your personal specifications then the Triton is a good candidate.

Your future rests on a knife's edge. Choose wisely padawan.

-Britton

[Jason K]

While it would cost more than $500 to put together a hull and sink from scratch, there are many cheap Tritons out there that may be in better shape. You could dig through a few boatyards and turn one up, I'm sure. But so what, really. The way I see it is this... a few hundred bucks one way or the other doesn't make much difference. Buy the boat you fall in love with. If you look at this boat and see her under full sail rather than in the shape she's in now, and you have the time, skills, and inclination to bring her back from the dark side, then do it. If you're not excited about the prospect now, then walk away because, though I have limited experience, I know for sure that it always gets worse before it gets better.

On the other hand it just needs a good cleaning. I mean it's only cosmetic work; with a little TLC you can have a great classic yacht in no time.


Write that goofy line down and put in a drawer. You have my permission to use it if you get frustrated and just want to sell the boat.[/i]

[Tim]

BUT ... if you take a different angle and look at the costs of building a boat from scratch, $500 for a hull, complete with galley sink, is quite a bargin.

Absolutely, without a doubt. This is one reason that I chose to use an existing hull for my Daysailor. (An enamourment of Triton sailing qualities being the other.)

But to go from that $500 point to anything nice, or even anything sort of OK, will exceed the potential value of this particular boat, unfortunately.

This Triton, and others like her, need an owner who wants a nice boat for themselves and doesn't mind an investment in time and money.

[heartofgold]

Excellent advice from you all. Thanks. Actually, my primary interest in this particular Triton, was the fact that it is here. Profit is really not my motive, I am looking for a larger boat than what I have. For me, right now especially, I have access to many used parts (including masts) at minimal or no cost.

And I said I was going to offer the owner $500. I truly doubt he will accept it. I know that that is less than his yard bill, I guess it really depends upon how much he has made on the engine and anything else he has sold. His motive, however, is profit, and I doubt that my offer will fit the bill, so to speak. We will have to see.

If I want a real fixer-upper, there is also a 2001 Beneteau 33 in the yard. The entire stem (above the waterline) has been destroyed, and there is a hole in the transom and 2 or 3 on the deck. Miraculously, this boat did not sink. As massive as these repairs are, they are not out of line with what I have been doing the past 6 months. I could sell such a boat for over $100g, and it has been speculated that the boat will sell for between 4k-5k. Even having to buy a new stick, this could be a profitable endeavor. But I really wouldn't want a Beneteau, you understand, of course.

We will see what the owner wants; this may or may not be the boat for me. Time will tell....

[George ( C&C 40 )]

Hi Heart of Gold,


I did a major restoration of a Triton once. Upwards of 1000 hours of work for a boat that sold in the mid teens when all was said and done. The primary restoration work took 850 hours and then another 300 over the next few years to get her where I wanted her to be. That's over 125 full 8 hour days in the yard sanding, scraping, drilling, epoxying, wiring, etc. And the boat you have pictured is going to take a lot more than this. Not to mention untold thousands of dollars in parts and equipment.

The person who bought the Triton from me got the deal of a lifetime as will the person who buys Tim's boat. You will be much better off both financially and physically buying a completely fixed up boat from somebody else. Much much better off.

On my next boat I was able to strike a nice balance between cost and work. I found one that was in perfect shape except that it had failed its survey and was back on the market. It had failed due to water migration along the stem fitting and would require about 50 sq. ft. of new core in the bow section of the boat. The owner was under some time pressure, a very large chunk came off the price, I bought it, and a month later the boat was perfect again. This time however, the work I did actually made me money and I got a great boat. A nice balance between cost, working, and sailing.

Something to think about at least. I will admit that I had a deep understanding of re-coring balsa from my work with the Triton and it was this that allowed me to purchase the next boat without worrying about my ability to fix it. If I had it to over again though, I would not do a complete restoration. It's just too expensive in both time and money. Unless you just live for the boat building process I would spend my time sailing whatever boat you get next, not working on it. My 2 cents at least.


Good Luck,

George Jones
"Delphinus"

[Peter]

Another downside of this particular boat is that if the present owner is trying to sell off as much as he can to recover costs, then you'll be looking at replacing a lot of missing parts to make her sailable again.

The best bargain for a fixer-upper is a tired complete boat. That way you have all the pieces and can rebuild them. I did that with my San Juan and I STILL spent a fair chunk to finish it. Well, it's not really finished as I'm looking at a furler, new sails, rigid vang ..................!

[Tim]

this may or may not be the boat for me. Time will tell....

When it's the right boat, all the pieces will tend to fall into place on their own. That's how you know she's the right one for you personally.

If you have to work too hard to make it happen, it's probably not your destiny.

Hurricane boats like that Beneteau, which was worth a lot (too much, IMHO) before the damage, are the way to go if one wants a semi-profitable enterprise. With some careful market research beforehand, and selecting the right boat, there are opportunities to actually come out on top in the end. Still, the potential profit margin is not that large, unless you cut corners. With a Beneteau, the whole boat's a cut corner to begin with, so you could probably get away with it.

As they say: the best way to make a small fortune in the boat business is to start with a large one.