Dan's rebuild with electric propulsion

[Skipper Dan]

I thought I'd start a new thread as I am starting to work on the rebuild. I removed the rudder. It was not easy. Someone fared out over the top of the gudgeon and pintles. I had to remove all of the extra fiberglass below each one to remove them. After that it came right off. I am rebuilding the holes for the gudgeon and I ordered some 1/2" bronze for new pins for the pintles. I also ordered some brass for the new rivets. Today I spent grinding off 3/4" of extra fiberglass from the rear lower hull.

There are 6 small holes in the false keel. Should I leave those in for drainage or just repair them? I do not know if they were put in after it came out of the water or before.

The rudder shaft looks to be in good shape with just a small amount of wear at the top. This too was epoxied on quite hard so it was not fun to get apart. I did not see a bearing on the bottom. Is there only a top bearing?

I have my direct drive electric motor tentatively pick out. It is called "The beast" GE D-394 or GE-5BC49JB 1134. High torque motor. on 36v it has 9 hp @1600 rpm. 48v 11hp @ 2200 rpm. This should match up well with the Atomic 4. 110 amps is only half throttle.

6 * 240Ah @ 6V = 240Ah @ 36V = 8.6kWh
8.6Kwh * 60% depth of discharge = 5.2kWh
110A @ 36V = 3960W. 5200Wh/3960W = 1.31 hours
With Peukert Effect for FLA = 0.75 hours @ 5kts
40A @ 36V = 1440W. 5200Wh/1440W = 3.61 hours
With Peukert Effect for FLA = 2.65 hours @ 3kts

48v would do a little better.

I am still looking into a used system because I have a golf cart dealer right down the road I could do almost the same thing for 1/3 the price. depending on how I buy the parts it could run as high as $2,000.00 new. I think I can get it done for $1,000.00 with batteries.

Carbon Fiber should be here tomorrow for the mast beam. I have a new laminated oak beam plus all new supports. I am still looking for a hinge system for the mast.

Exhausted and dusty Dan

[Case]

That's interesting.

Electric motors definitely are the way to go if daysailing. I am seriously considering getting a Torqueedo outboard for my sailboat. I daysail most of the time.

However, for cruising, I have my doubts about electric motors... The reason why I doubt they are good is you need to go to the dock all of the time just to recharge. If you're not going to the dock, then how to recharge? Solar panels recharge too slowly. To have decent range, you may need to get so many batteries that the total weight might be too much for the boat (ruins light air performance). Foul gas or diesel engines are the way to go for cruising in my opinion. Invest in bigger light air sails so you keep on sailing as much as possible before starting the motor.

One other possibility you might consider... Get a Torqueedo outboard. They come in 28" shaft lengths. Long shaft outboards tend to stop at 25"... They only weight 28-35 LBS, depending on the model. Get a nice bronze outboard bracket that pops in at the deck, hangs off the stern. Edison or Spartan Marine makes them. When you are done with the Torqueedo, you just lift the outboard and the bronze bracket off and hide it somewhere down below. The only visible things left are two little bronze mounts on the deck near the stern! Its a very visually clean system. Might be easier than trying to set up a custom electric motor system. If it doesn't work, you can sell the Torqueedo easily... One design sailboat racers use them all of the time now.

- Case

[Skipper Dan]

A lot is going to depend on your mission. I am going to live aboard so if I am in light air I live out on the water. I have been going over some numbers and it looks like I will get about 3 hrs @ 3 knots If you only go 70 % of hull your range goes up fast. If you only go about 1 knot you can get 8 hrs I think. You can also charge the batteries while you sail with the prop, solar and wind. I am doing this because I do not want to depend on fuel. You are limited by your pocket book and fuel tank as to how far you can go under aux. I am limited by sun and wind. In the middle of the Atlantic I will take my electric over your fuel any day. Once you run out your done. Once the sun or wind starts back up I can recharge. It is all in the mission. For a live-a-board electric makes more sense. No fuel smell and more storage room available plus you have all those batteries to run all those nice appliances. The batteries (8, 6v Trojan) fit in the same area as the Atomic 4 and weigh the same amount. If I have to I can use a generator to get up canals and such.

It is after all a sail boat.

I got all but one gudgeon and pintles done.

Dan

[Case]

Sound great!

Now I know you know the upsides and downsides of an electric propulsion system. Many people don't. Most people are better off with gas or diesel due to time constraints - they do not have time to recharge the batteries if they run out before reaching their destination.

- Case

[Hirilondë]

Most people are better off with gas or diesel due to time constraints - they do not have time to recharge the batteries if they run out before reaching their destination.

Yeah, most people are quite hasty. Dan, you must be more closely related to Ents :)

[Skipper Dan]

I ground down the rest of the buildup that was on the keel. I am really itchy. I see that the rudder attaches to the false keel and is hollow in this area. Seems like a weak point to me. I am going to fill in at least where the rudder attaches with epoxy. The rivets that went through holding the grudgens on went through a hollow area. Not a good thing for rivets! Not really a good thing for bolts either if you tighten them to tight!

I get so dusty that I do not feel like taking pictures, but I will tomorrow or later tonight if I go back.

Still working on deciding on the type of motor to use. "The Beast" series wound high torque came in with a little better numbers than the permanent magnet type. I also have the option of using a belt type series wound although lower HP. With this I can switch the belt from the motor to an alternator and produce electricity with the prop. I have not looked into how fast I have to be going for this to work yet.

Dan

[Skipper Dan]

A couple of pics of the work so far.

Dan

[Mark F]

Hi Dan,

To give you some real life performance numbers - on my 1976 Ericson 27 with a 5kw brushless motor and 8 - 12 volt agm's (two 100 amp hour banks) I have gotten 7 hours running time at 4knots and used half of my available battery storage (never tapped into the second bank). That was with a good bottom and in calm conditions. I installed the electric inboard in April of '08 and sail year-round, so far I couldn't be happier. I suggest one of the first investments you make with your system is a good battery monitor with a current sensor. You will need to know what your current draw is at different throttle settings. You might go from a current draw of 20 amps to a draw of 50 amps and only increase your speed by a knot or so. Good luck with your rebuild, looks like a fun project.

Mark

[Skipper Dan]

Thanks Mark, A few more questions for you.

What motor was it?

Do you ever regenerate using the prop?

Are you using the same prop that the engine had or did you change that out for a 3, 5 or 7 blade design?

I am torn between using a very high torque direct drive motor over a Mars type that you would use a reduction gear on. The direct drive did a little better but will not regenerate. Cost was about the same but one would have to design and make a reduction unit so the brushless ends up more, but then regenerates. decisions decisions.

Thanks for the time, Dan

[Skipper Dan]

The bronze came today. I installed one of the new pins. I may use a bushing in the other part to upgrade it. I wanted to move the holes for the rivets as they were not placed very well. They are now straight and I will have a jig to get them straight on the keel and rudder.

Dan

[Skipper Dan]

I got the sail storage area done. I lined it with aluminum insulation and covered it with fiberglass board. It is a little bright so the pictures don't show very well.

Also I am going through some of the other things I have and trying to figure out what goes where. a few things I cannot place. The brass cover plate is 5" what would one use this for? The track is a little larger size than the Jib or mast track. I have a boom vang would it go with that?

Dan

[Skipper Dan]

Carbon fiber mast beam installed along with new forward shroud knee braces.

Dan

[Rachel]

Looks like you're cranking along.

On that round, bronze deck plate: I'm not a Triton expert, but I wonder if that plate might have been in the cockpit sole? To make an access place for the stuffing box, for example? (Alberg 30s have one there for that reason.)

On the other hand, it looks kind of new and shiny. If the Atomic Four was taken out by the PO, could it have been a replacement filler for the hole that would have had the shifter insert?

Rachel

[Skipper Dan]

Yes from the other site I found out it was the access plate in the cockpit. I should have the support beams in by tomorrow as well as the V berth mostly done. I want to insulate it and I am not sure if I have enough to finish. The other piece is a reefing track for the main.

I am however having a hard time finding a 3" deck plate for the forward vent. I have the vent and plug but no deck plate. Seems like this is not a popular item. They sell the vents still saying you have to buy the plate separate, but then do not list the plate.

Dan

[Rachel]

What sort of vent/plate is it you are looking for? Bronze? Plastic? Screw-in? Snap-in?

I can never resist a hard-to-find part hunt :D

Thanks for posting photos of your progress.

Rachel

[Mark F]

Hi Dan,

The motor is a Mars brushless with a Sevcon controller. I bought it as a unit (SolidNav) with the reduction, mounting frame, forward/reverse switch, throttle and fuse.

I do get some regeneration. I've seen s much as 4 amps (at 48 volts) sailing at 6 knots. I rarely watch the monitor because it is down below so I do not know how often it is producing that much current.

I started with the existing A4 prop an 11x10 two blade and with that prop I could motor at 3 knots with a 20 amp draw. I switched to a fixed 12x10 three blade and now get 4 knots at 20 amps.

Mark

[Mark F]

Hi Rachel,

I'll be interested to see what you come up with regarding the 3" deck plate. I couldn't find one.

Thanks!

Mark

[Peter]

Mark,
I'm very intersted in electric propulsion. (I converted a small pickup truck a few years ago.)
Do you have a web page with more info and pictures?
Thanks!

[Skipper Dan]

What sort of vent/plate is it you are looking for? Bronze? Plastic? Screw-in? Snap-in?

I can never resist a hard-to-find part hunt :D

Thanks for posting photos of your progress.

Rachel

Screw in bronze. The vent is one of those higher oblong vents with red insides. It has 3" bronze threads on the bottom. The cap I have which I think goes with it is Nicrometals Marine Hardware, S.F. Calf. (For Replacements).

I will not be able to start on the deck until I have everything there and were I want it. Since I have not sailed a boat this size before it is not going to be easy knowing where to place the cleats and such for best use.

Dan

[Skipper Dan]

Mark,
I'm very intersted in electric propulsion. (I converted a small pickup truck a few years ago.)
Do you have a web page with more info and pictures?
Thanks!

Peter join "electricboats" yahoo group. Both Mark and I are on that group. I have to find the company again but there is a company that you can get the whole thing for $1,100.00. You will have to supply the reduction gears and support though. http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store ... ve_kit.php was not that hard to find.

Dan

[Mark F]

Hi Peter,

I don't have a detailed web site for the electric repower. I do have a few photos here, http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchan ... albumid=77 you might have to join ericsonyachts.org to view.

Dan's advice is good, lots of information on the yahoo electricboats site.

I'm very pleased with my electric propulsion.

Mark F

[Skipper Dan]

I took a few more photos I have the insulation on, on one side and the chain locker done. The chain will feed via a PVC tube direct to this locker. The beam supports are in bu not fastened. I have some more interior work to be finished first.

Dan

[Rachel]

On the deck plate, for a 3" bronze, I found a few possibilities. What I don't know is if they are all a similar thread type or if there are variations.

Perko, cap only, their part #0526P0399A
Perko catalog, page 148; figure number 0526

Mariner's Hardware shows a 3" cap available, although I have heard conflicting things about their delivery of goods (but quality is said to be good).

http://www.firstmatescabin.com/mariners ... DeckBZ.htm

Downwind Marine in San Diego (great cruisers' chandlery) has a complete unit for ~$60; I'm not familiar with Marine Depot - not sure what that means.

http://www.downwindmarine.com/Deck-Plat ... 02508.html

[Skipper Dan]

Wow Rachel that is amazing. I googled for 2 hrs last night. Ordering on Monday.

Thanks Dan

[Rachel]

Are you going to look for someplace that carries the Perko one? I think that would be my first choice. It would be extra nice if you could get it from a place where you could return it in case the threads aren't right. (I'm guessing you want to keep the same base ring so your cowl will fit too.)

I don't know whether there is more than one type of threads used on deck plates (?).

Okay, next parts mystery? (I always like the ones where someone posts a photo of something they found deep in a locker and you have to try to figure out what it is :)

[Skipper Dan]

I called quite a few places (perko) they were not very helpful. I was not ordering a complete sailboat refit so they had very little time for me. Most said that threads come in all different sizes. The first company is kinda shady I found some bad reports on shipping (The company changed hands to Blue Water Marine). I could not get a hold of them anyway. The second company was by far the nicest and most helpful. He ran out to the warehouse to get both parts to see if they fit. Although he did not have the plate in stock. He thought they would fit as it was a standardized fitting. I did some more research and found that it is more than likely a NPT fine thread. He said I could return the part if it did not work. By the way both companies order their parts from Marine depot. Anyway I learned a lot more about vents and dorade boxes with all the research. This is similar to an airplane cowl high pressure low pressure inlet outlet. I may just build my own and incorporate the cowl into the dorade box.

Next part, These are something that was also in the box. I think they are rear stay attachments to have a double stay. I do not know if they even go to the Triton. I also looked at hundreds of photos on line and have a good handle on where most of the cleats go. Still not sure if the jib track goes inboard or outboard. Mine is three times longer than the one pictured for a Triton and I think it was mounted outboard. The Triton smaller one was mounted inboard.

[Rachel]

Hi Dan,

I'm stumped on your recent parts photo.

Was the outfit that you had a good experience with Downwind Marine? If so, I'm glad to hear that. Downwind is a fantastic, "mom & pop" cruisers' chandlery in San Diego. It's the kind of place that not only has tons of new stuff, but still has barrels of walnut shells for non-skid, old rubber cone stoppers for Groco seacocks, and any number of treasures. They also collect mail for cruisers, have a loaner vehicle (or did, when I was there) and provided Internet access back when Wi-fi was unavailable. If that's not enough, they had doughnuts and coffee for cruisers on Wednesdays, and will store your credit card number on file so that you can order parts (or peanut butter) via HF radio from wherever you may be anchored.

It will be interesting to hear how the threads work out. I vaguely remember having a bit of a challenge with an old cowl like that and trying to find a fitting, but it was a long time ago and I can't remember for sure.

[Skipper Dan]

As I look at them again they may be the factory retro fit froward shroud attachments. These were sent out to the Tritons that did not have forward shrouds. Makes sense anyway.

This is the dorade box I am going to build. It should work just fine. It is only an exit air so it should work well. I think I may just build three of them two more for the rear lazzarette to replace the new plastic ones that where supposed to go there. They did not even have dorade boxes so it should be an improvement. I may make the two for the rear with a little bigger mouth. Maybe with a wider top that pops open with cloth sides to give even more inlet air flow.

Dan

[Skipper Dan]

You have to click on the picture to see it correct

Dan

[Hirilondë]

I assume the cowl vent attaches to the top of the box aft of the tube to down below? And if so, I suggest a baffle dividing the cowl section from the tube section from the top of the box about 2/3 of the way down to the deck/cabin top.

[Skipper Dan]

There is no cowl vent the whole thing is the vent and dorade in one. The air comes up from the PVC tube (Welded to the deck) Actually to the ring you see in the pictures above. Then goes out the rear of the box. The only way water could get in to the cabin is if it flooded the whole box up to the PVC height. In weather that bad you just close the opening to the box.

Dan

[Hirilondë]

The air comes up from the PVC tube (Welded to the deck) Actually to the ring you see in the pictures above. Then goes out the rear of the box.

Ah ok, so it is an exit vent, not intake. This then leads me to the following question: Why will the air choose to exit the vents? Are you creating a positive atmosphere that will cause this?

My lazarette is an outboard engine well and fuel storage. I use 2 cowl vents. They are aimed in opposite directions, thus the one closer to the wind becomes the intake and the other becomes the exit. The scooped air from the one facing the wind creates a positive atmosphere and the other vent provides an escape to equalize it.

[Skipper Dan]

You can get just as much suction from a vent turned backwards as you can from one that is ram fed. All you need is a low pressure area aft of the vent. This will suck the air out of the boat. On an airplane when the engine runs too hot we do not make the ram air bigger we put a lip on the bottom outflow. This creates a low pressure area and allows the air to exit. Air inlets are getting smaller and smaller on planes. circulation air is controlled by air exit and low pressure areas. I know you do not want fumes going forward in the boat, but you could turn both vents in the rear towards the front and the air would exit the vent in the bow. The air in the boat does not know what direction the boat is moving it only knows low and high pressure. If you had the front vent piped down to the bilge the air would travel down the bilge and up and out of the boat giving you twice the air flow (Both vents turned the same way). This will give you better airflow as it will be drawing air from lower in the boat rather than just from one vent to another up on top. One of the biggest problems we see in airplanes is keeping all the cylinders equal in temp (Or air flow around them). You'd be surprised at the lengths you have to go through to move air from one place to another.

Dan

[Rachel]

Dan,

It's interesting to have your perspective from the aircraft industry. I have a question for you: Would what you have described above work if the boat were not underway? (I ask since ventilation then is also important to many).

The second part to it is would it work if the boat were not underway and not head to wind (say, at a dock that might have wind coming from another direction), or if there were no wind (edited to say: make that little wind)?

Let's say the boat is unattended and so there is no wind scoop or forehatch open.

Thanks,
Rachel

[Skipper Dan]

I cannot see how it would work any different from a low profile vent. If I have two vents turned forward on the stern and one vent turned aft on the bow. If the wind is blowing one way one or the other I will have an inlet or outlet. If there is no wind at all heat rises so air would still come out the upper vent and go in the lower vent maybe not as well but it would do the same as a regular vent would. By the way I have a solar vent that goes on anytime there is sun and well into the night on battery. This same type of fan system can be made to work off a regular very small solar panel with a fan on the end of the PVC pipe from in the cabin. Now you gave me more thoughts :-) I make air dryers out of silicon gel for water treatment. I can make one up with the fan on one side drawing air through the vent then the dryer. I now have very dry air to dehumidify the cabin. All for free!

Dan

[Skipper Dan]

I got the insulation up and the headliner installed. I also cut some insulation for the sides, then the bugs got the better of me. Even bug spray did no good. I am just over $1,000.00 so far on materials which is more than I thought it would be. For some reason I thought it was going to be cheaper to work on boats than planes. Silly me.

Dan

[Skipper Dan]

Well I think I located all the original placements for the deck hardware. I ordered a 8" bronze cleat for the bow because I only had two. I think the Triton came with one on the bow and one on the stern in the middle. I am not sure if the track was always right in front of the cleat or not but there does not seem to be much room for both. It looks like they were relocated to either side of the rear hatch. So now I have two that go there and one that goes on the bow.

I am not sure yet whether I am going to use the wood under the Jib track. It seems like a problem waiting to happen even though it would be nice to have it of the deck. Any opinions in this area would be helpful. I also have 4 Wichard pad eyes that have not been installed. Are these better than the triangle type and should I use them in any certain place.

I found some bronze bushings for the grunions so once they come in I have both the pintles and grunions rebuilt they turned out rather nice. The false keel is half done (one side) a vacuum cleaner on the sander helped a lot. I filled in the holes for the grunions plus about 1" with epoxy. I think this is a weak spot on the Triton. I think that is where the water gets in for the false keel. I am also going to use a piece of carbon fiber on the bottom and extend it like Tim does to cover the rudder. I would rather use carbon fiber than a metal just in case it gets hit it will break rather than bend and interfere with the rudder. The new rudder is laminated up and should be ready for construction tomorrow.

Dan

[Rachel]

I don't know why you are considering wooden (or any) pads under the cleats, so I can't comment as to whether I would do the same thing; but, if I were going to use them, I would probably either use pads made of pre-made fiberglass board, such as you can buy from McMaster-Carr, or maybe bare teak (I don't like having to varnish small pieces in places like that).

Oh, I wanted to add: This is just me, but I would change up to 10" cleats. Even with a pair, I like the extra size for its ability to easily handle more/larger lines when necessary.

And... nautical terminology (always fun :) I have never heard the term "grunion" used for "gudgeon" (which is what I am inferring from your post). I would like to know more about that. I'm thinking that it is either a nautical term I don't know (of which there are many), or that maybe it comes from airplane terminology, since you are an aircraft afficianado.

Rachel

[Skipper Dan]

No that is just my mistake I have not seen the word "gudgeon" enough so I just keep forgetting it I just want to call them hinges but I know that is not right either. I will write it down so I have something to refer to next time.

The wood is from the former owner. It goes under the Jib track not the cleats. I still do not know if I want to use it. Just like you, it seems like more work than it is worth. Well that did not come out right but you know what I mean. All the other pads are made of fiberglass and bought by the previous owner. No pads under the cleats. Only the stanchions, pushpit and pulpit, (Mid winches, clutches, and organizers) these I may not use. I liked the idea of raising things up where the water ran along the toe rail.

I could use the two 8" cleats on the mid sides I suppose. Would they be of any use there?

Dan

[Rachel]

There may be spacers under the tracks for good reason (or not). Do the cars need the clearance?

Midships cleats are a wonderful thing. Very very handy for docking, and nice for tying spring lines. It can be hard to mount them on smaller boats due consideration of toe-stubbing, fair lead, and potential chafe on the rail, but they are marvelous in my opinion (and not nearly enough boats have them).

Rachel

[Tim]

I look at that genoa track mockup with the wood raising it so high, and my toes just say "ouch". Genoa tracks are bad enough toe-stubbers as they are. I wouldn't use the spacers, but that's just me.

[Figment]

I'll go the other way on the mid cleats. Mine are only 6", and I wouldn't want them any larger. They're only used for springlines and hanging fenders, and those side decks are crowded enough.
I've also seen some REALLY nice lay-flat or pop-up cleat designs over the last couple of years which have made me wish they were around when I did my deck rebuild.

Along the same lines, I would not do the wood under the tracks. Leave them flat on the deck so you can step right on them without a thought.... or put them up on the toerail.
Mine are on the toerail, and I won't tell you that it's easy by any stretch, but I consider it well worth the effort to have the side deck clear of those tracks. I've thanked myself dozens of times for suffering through that installation.

[Figment]

also...

If you're doing the big bitt on the bow, why also do little cleats?

Tritons originally came with those two little cleats on the stern deck, AND a large cleat at the forward edge of the stern deck. That large cleat was for the mainsheet, before a PO replaced it with the traveler. Traveler or cleat, not both.

[Rachel]

Here's one idea I like (not that you want a whomping cleat right in the middle of your sidedeck). Sorry it's so small; I know I have a close-up, but I could not find it, so this is a crop from a larger photo.

At any rate, it is two shaped teak blocks held together by bungie cords. You "snap" it onto the cleat when you are not using it.

If I find the larger version I will add it.

[carterskemp]

as for the jib tracks, why not just mount them directly on the rail? mine are similar looking tracks that are straight when unmounted, but then with the help of an assistant mount directly onto the rail. curved and all.
gets them off the deck and makes one less thing to jam your toes on.

[Hirilondë]

If you're doing the big bitt on the bow, why also do little cleats?

That's what I did (bit only), and I have what looks like the same bit. When I loop the mooring bridle over the bit and lash it down I sleep really well. A huge piece of bronze with 4 through bolts and a nice backing plate just breeds confidence.

For spring lines I loop them over my genny winch and they lead over bronze chafe strips on the toe rail. Mid ship cleats are handy, but like some others, I prefer the clean side decks which are small enough and a nuisance to navigate as it is.

[Rachel]

Mid ship cleats are handy, but like some others, I prefer the clean side decks which are small enough and a nuisance to navigate as it is.

I can see that. Especially if one's plan does not include much docking - then it would be even more annoying to stub your toes on them.

[Skipper Dan]

also...

If you're doing the big bitt on the bow, why also do little cleats?

Tritons originally came with those two little cleats on the stern deck, AND a large cleat at the forward edge of the stern deck. That large cleat was for the mainsheet, before a PO replaced it with the traveler. Traveler or cleat, not both.

OK I'm getting it a little better now. This photo is the one I think you are talking about. I do not need the 8" cleat. (That means I just bought an extra for no reason) :-(.

There is another name for it but after looking for an hour I can't find it. Started with a "B" I think. I thought the two were used in conjunction. So now I need another opinion. Since I already have two for the back should I go head and install the 8" on the bow also or just leave it off and sell it on ebay?

When you say little are you talking about "Little 8" cleats" or something smaller than that. One thing I did like about working on airplanes is that we had a log book to use to find out what was done on the plane from the time it was new. Makes things a whole lot easier.

Dan

[Rachel]

There is another name for it but after looking for an hour I can't find it. Started with a "B" I think.

Bitt or Bollard? (Although that wouldn't be for the cleat, and I believe a bollard is usually on the quay.)

One thing I did like about working on airplanes is that we had a log book to use to find out what was done on the plane from the time it was new. Makes things a whole lot easier.

Oh, wouldn't that be nice!? Actually, sometimes you luck out. I bought my 40-year-old Alberg 30 from the original owner and he had saved every receipt, and logged every bit of maintenance done to the engine. But unfortunately that is unusual.

On the other hand, wouldn't it just be that much worse to have to read things like "re-bedded two forward ports; used three full tubes of silicone." Gaaah! ;-/

[Skipper Dan]

That's it, http://www.briggsmarine.com.au/Briggs_M ... tings.html I used to be so good on googling things I'm getting old. I have to start a booklet on nautical terms, just write everything down. I have several books on sailing that I just bought and the one I like the best Steve Sleight "the New Complete Sailing Manual" did not list it on the deck hardware.

Better to find out "Now" than as you put the first coat of paint on. In the auto body business the first question we asked was "Did you ever use any Armor all".

Dan