New sails & weatherhelm

[Steve480]

I'm wondering if new sails, proper mast rake, and owner familiarity with the main/headsail combination can create the right amount of weatherhelm on the Triton. I've only sailed with the old sails that came with the boat, but there was more WH than I would have expected. The exception was when the winds piped up and the main had a deep reef with the working jib. Then it was a joy to sail. Actually, it's been a joy to sail in all conditions, but reducing the WH a bit would make it even better. I know from experience that new sails gave our other boat more forward motion, less heeling and less WH, and I'm hoping that this will happen with the Triton.
I have some upcoming projects with the mast step, mast beam, chain plates and rigging. As much as I would prefer not to, I would consider moving the mast and bulkheads, etc., forward a little bit if that has worked for other Triton owners with the WH. I suppose the prudent thing would be to take it for a few sails with the new sails and see for myself. The boat is really torn apart now, and the thought of getting it ready for the water only to pull it back out again makes me stop and think. Any thoughts or experiences with this?

[dasein668]

Lots has been posted on this topic on the Yahoo! Triton Group. You might do well to run a search there.

In general, consensus seems to be that reducing mast rake and reducing main sail area?especially any roach? are beneficial. Some Triton owners swear by a shortened foot and hollow-cut leach.

I have a fully battened main with moderate roach area. This certainly does not reduce the helm, but I haven't noticed that it increased the helm over my old blown out sail which was fairly hollow cut.

As far as moving masts around, I would seriously consider having a naval architect look at that issue before I started messing with it.

In general, it certainly would be nice to have less helm (I got my start sailing on a boat that would steer itself for 20 minutes at a time when properly trimmed!) but I find that when the helm really starts to get overwhelming, it's really time to reef anyway, which solves the problem.

[Tim]

The helm is definitely an issue. The easiest fix is to reef early--about 12 knots true (about 15-16 apparent). New sails would in general tend to produce less weather helm, but they won't make all that much difference in the end: the boat simply has tons of weather helm.

Still, new sails are beneficial in so many ways that you certainly won't regret it if you spring for new ones. I don't understand the point of making do with lousy sails if you truly don't have to. That said, don't let the cost of new sails keep you from sailing; use the old ones then.

With the correct amount of sail up, the helm is minimized, so increased helm pressure is usually your first clue that it's time to shorten sail.

[Robert The Gray]

I have often wondered if the reason that the design of the triton leads to such strong weather helm is not because of the sails or mast placement but because of the boom vang. I get most of my w helm when slightly off the wind. it is worst at the beam reach. I seem to remember that the boom vang aka kicking strap. is a fairly new piece of technology. Like no boats had them back in the sixties. When you add the vang the back end of the main remains in power and forces the head of the boat up. Could it be that a lessening of vang tension and allowing the back end of the sail to rise will move the mains coe forward and lessen the weather helm without a loss in speed? by the way I have a reef in my main almost all summer here.

robert

[Tim]

Well, that's certainly true, but that's the vang acting exactly as designed. You can certainly depower the main by letting the sheet out and the boom up, but it's more efficient (sail and lift-wise) to reef the sail and keep it fully powered. Hence the vang.

One other factor that increases the weather helm the way most of us sail our Tritons is that we tend to use somewhat smaller genoas, such as 130% or even smaller sometimes. The boat was designed for a 170%, which is just too darn big for pleasant cruising. There's no doubt that a larger headsail helps the weather helm issue. But of course, you can only use the large headsail in lighter winds, when the weather helm is at its least anyway. By the time the wind pipes up, it's time for a reef anyway.

[Peter]

Just a quick question on weather helm'd Tritons: Is the fractional rig or the masthead rig better? Which one has less weather helm, or is the rig a major factor?
Also, I read somewhere about a slightly better rudder design that helped the problem. It was more squared-off at the bottom aft edge.

Any insights on this, anyone?

Thanks!

[Tim]

The weather helm problem seems to be mostly with the fractional rigs (which is the vastly largest proportion of Triton rigs out there). The mainsail is huge, while the headsails are quite small by comparison, even with a 150%. The masthead-rigged Tritons have a somewhat more balanced sailplan. That said, there are relatively few enough masthead rigs that we don't tend to hear that much about their performance versus the fractional rig, since most folks have the frac. The masthead rig is several feet shorter than the fractional rig, so the mainsail is proportionately smaller.

Many Triton rudders have been modified over the years, but there seem to be mixed results--and most are backyard-type mods that don't necessarily have any real engineering or design behind them. Therefore, it's unclear how much of a difference a rudder with the larger area at the bottom makes to the weather helm specifically. One such modification, according to the boat's owner, actually made the steering untenable. His was a very drastic squaring-off that vastly increased the area down low. Most modified rudders are less extreme.

It's clear, however, that the generally squarer rudder design on a full keel boat is better overall, since the crecent moon rudders disappeared entirely on nearly all full keel designs that came after the Triton--later Pearsons, Cape Dorys, and similar boats all feature a more square design.

Note that the so-called Triton MK II design, which is the lines plan you often see published in books and online and which shows a more square rudder design, was not actually ever built as such. So no Tritons ever came from the factory with this newer rudder shape.

I'm planning a modified squarish design for the Daysailor rudder, when I get around to building it. But nothing too extreme--sort of a kicked-up lower edge and a trailing edge that still angles forward over its length. Details later.

[jhenson]

Tim,

I,ve noticed that the line drawings a few have posted on the internet show a squared rudder.

See:

http://pw1.netcom.com/~suter/linestn.JPG

Do you think these were done by Alberg himself? Somewhere, I read that he redesigned the rudder for less weather helm.

If so, I think one could extract enough info from the lines to scale a rudder to be very close to the one in the diagram. Tapering the section seems like it would be a good idea as well and easily done with a hand plane before you laminate two pieces of marine ply together.


Joe

[Tim]

Those are exactly the drawings to which I was referring, the so-called "MK II" Triton. They were prepared by Alberg, but only to show the Triton lines in public, since the story goes that the original lines were not able to be published. I think this is in the Henderson book somewhere. For the new set of lines, Alberg did change the rudder design and also the after end of the waterline somewhat. No boat was ever built to these changed drawings.

[jhenson]

Sorry,

I should have read your last post in better detail.

Do you think your rudder on the daysailor will look about like this?

Joe

[Tim]

Do you think your rudder on the daysailor will look about like this?

Yes, I expect it will look similar to that.

[Steve480]

Thanks much for the comments,
Our boat also has the fractional rig. I wasn't aware that Carl had designed the rig with a 170 headsail in mind. I'm setting our boat up for day sailing and short term cruising, not racing, but I do like the idea of a lot of potential sail area even if it's not often used.
New sails have been an 'assumed' from the beginning of our Triton project. I haven't really begun to research the whole sail plan area yet, but conceptually I'm leaning toward to a loosefooted roachless main with 3 sets of reef pts and a 170 or 150, 110, 60 and storm jib. I've never used a roller furling jib but am considering that for convenience, safety and additional storage space below. Atom's inner stay for the storm jib is an interesting idea, I think, with roller furling.
As an aside, Ted Brewer has an interesting article in the latest Good Old Boat mag (March/April 05) with his thoughts on sail plans and rigs. He spoke rather highly of the fractional rig and jumper stays, and balanced rig with larger main and smaller jib for cruising.
I'm still trying to get up to speed with the Triton inside info and its idiosyncrasies, so thanks again for sharing your thoughts. I'm sure I'm not alone, but all I have to do is remember what it felt like to have that slender hull slicing through the water to make all this construction work and research a labor of love.

[Tim]

My own opinion is that a 130% on a roller furler is ideal for daysailing and cruising in typical conditions. The sail is large enough for those light air days, but not too large when the wind pipes up. Plus, it can be effectively reefed down to a 100% or smaller (30% being roughly the amount that a headsail can be efficiently--a key word--roller reefed). If your sailing area features predominately winds of 10 knots or so, a 150% might make more sense, but it won't be as successfully reefable to as small an area as the 130%. Any roller-reefed headsail, to any size, will get you where you're going, even if the shape ends up less than stellar.

Everything's a compromise, and the 130% headsail is no exception. It's not perfect...but it does represent a very efficient compromise for the way most of us sail. With one reef in the main and a full 130% headsail, the Triton sails nicely on a beat, up to about 20 knots of wind. After that, some headsail reefing starts to be required. How often do any of us truly beat into more than 20 knots of wind?

The 170% is ridiculously big, and few people use them much anymore. Racing rating rules severely penalize anything over a 150%, so that drives the sail design for the rest of us.

Are you going offshore voyaging? If not, forget about worrying about tiny sails like 60% and storm jibs. You'll never need them. Same goes for three mainsail reefs; two is adequate for normal sailing. The second should be quite deep. If you are truly going offshore, then these storm sails make sense, but don't bother otherwise unless the cruise is already in your immediate plans. The marinas are already chock-full of "world voyagers" and other over-equipped boats that never leave the dock.

Personally, I highly recommend roller furling, but this is truly a personal choice that everyone must make for themselves, based on the way they like to sail and use the boat. There's no sense arguing one way or the other. Each side of the argument has at its core sound reasoning. I suggest that if you have any inclination towards roller furling, that you go for it. If you feel strongly against it, don't.

For typical coastal sailing, which virtually all of us do, I would spring for the best mainsail and roller furling headsail that I could, and would for the time being forgo other sails. If your big-time into spinnakers and the like, then allow for that; if you don't really care, then you don't need it, certainly not immediately. My own ideal downwind sail is a huge code zero on its own furler. I haven't managed to need this enough yet, though it would be very cool.

My own initial choices would be a full batten, loose-footed mainsail with two reefs and a decent roach (I'd rather reef than lose the roach for lighter air days), and the best 130% roller headsail, on a new furler, that money could buy. When you order the mainsail, be sure to specify all the things you really want: loose foot, webbed reefing toggles, cunningham cringle, etc. Take nothing for granted...

Avoid the temptation to purchase less-expensive mail order sails from Taiwan and instead buy from your local loft and support your local businessmen, even if the cost is higher; the service is usually worthwhile, as is the ongoing relationship with someone face to face. Sails are too important.

[Steve480]

Thanks Tim,

Now that Glissando has been on the water a few years it's especially interesting to read your opinions. I appreciate your comment about 'the marinas being chock full of "world voyagers" and over-equiped boats that never leave the dock'. Something like the tricked-out Hummer SUV that doesn't experience anything worse than the speed bumps at the bank drivethru, I suppose. I can't afford nor have any desire to live in either of those worlds. Our sailing season here on the tundra is short and not always sweet. Over time, I think it conditions the average sailor up here to take almost any day they're given and to be thankful. Many sailors' boats reflect that attitude. It's not a macho thing. It's just what they do out of necessity.

Anyway, thanks again as always. The main w/ 2 sets of reef pts and 130 RF jib sounds like a good way to get on the water quickly and efficiently. Fortunately, this Triton project is taking a while. The money tree out in our backyard has no leaves and I don't see the new buds showing any signs of life yet.

[dasein668]

Our sailing season here on the tundra is short and not always sweet. Over time, I think it conditions the average sailor up here to take almost any day they're given and to be thankful. Many sailors' boats reflect that attitude. It's not a macho thing. It's just what they do out of necessity.

Reminds me of a story a friend told me about taking the RYA Yachtmasters course over in Britain. He said that it was blowing force 9 with a driving rain and temps in the 40s and there were literally scores of small sailboats out with skippers and crew happily lounging in the cockpits with double reefed sails, foulies, and cups of tea.

No one would be on the water in Casco Bay on that sort of day.