AC power outlets

Technical information and geeky boat stuff
Post Reply
JonnyBoats
Candidate for Boat-Obsession Medal
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: Wiscasset, ME
Contact:

AC power outlets

Post by JonnyBoats »

When installing 120V AC power outlets on a boat (like the ones in a house), should they be special marine approved versions or are the ones from Home Depot just fine? Also what about GFCI recepticles?
John Tarbox
S/V Altair, a LeComte NorthEast 38
http://www.boatmaine.us
Capn_Tom
Skilled Systems Installer
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:04 pm
Boat Type: Westsail 32
Location: Erlanger, Ky

Post by Capn_Tom »

On the household versions the strap that holds the outlet in the j box will corrode. I assume the marine versions take this into account.
The board does not cut itself short!
Hirilondë
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 1317
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:50 am
Boat Name: Hirilondë
Boat Type: 1967 Pearson Renegade
Location: Charlestown, RI

Post by Hirilondë »

Definitely use GFCI!!
Dave Finnegan
builder of Spindrift 9N #521 'Wingë'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gresham’s Law of information: Bad information drives out good. No matter how long ago a correction for a particular error may have appeared in print or online, it never seems to catch up with the ever-widening distribution of the error.
Quetzalsailor
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:53 am
Boat Name: Quetzal
Boat Type: LeComte North East 38
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by Quetzalsailor »

You only have to have one GFCI outlet in a branch circuit, the first one. When wired correctly, it will act for all the others 'downstream'.

I plan to pull all the house-type metal boxes out of Q and replace them with the plastic ones, though the plastic ones typically have really lousy wire clamps and poor tapped holes for device screws.

Be sure to use the marine, tinned wire.

Read everything you can about isolating the 12v from the 120v, both at the panels and the grounds. The issue is stray currents and corrosion of throughhulls. Lots of conflicting information out there: dig for the gold.
User avatar
Ceasar Choppy
Boat Obsession Medal Finalist
Posts: 622
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:05 am
Location: Port Starboard, MD

Post by Ceasar Choppy »

I almost burned my boat to the waterline by using a Home Despot outlet on the the boat.

To be fair, it was entirely my fault, but the regular outlets you get at Home Despot are not designed to accept a ring terminal which is common practice on a boat. If you unscrew the terminal screw all the way out of the outlet to accomodate a ring terminal, it will be damn near impossible to thread the screw back into the little threaded backing plate encased in the outlet that serves as a nut to hold the screw tight. After a while, the screw will loosen some more until your wiring is arcing and starting fires aboard your boat. This also could have been avoided if I had used the forked terminals, but I see the same problem happening with those.


I'm not sure there really is a "marine" version of an outlet, although Hubble makes very good ones. They are GFI, very robust, and will accomodate a ring terminal without loosening.
Quetzalsailor
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:53 am
Boat Name: Quetzal
Boat Type: LeComte North East 38
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by Quetzalsailor »

It's not the Despot that's at fault for those screws not coming out. Their threads are deformed so that they won't come out. Not sure why, perhaps so that when you use the backwire connections the loose, unused screws won't back out by themselves and short against the next device or the metal box. Some of these are intended for straight-in-under-the-screw connection so the screw does not have to, and cannot, be backed out far enough to get the looped conductor on. No doubt some Code writer's ***dream; remember, they have to eat, too.

Check your choices at the Despot. I think you can select against that annoyance.

Have a look here at Marinco: http://www.marinco.com/index.html
They advertise that they're marine quality but nothing on the receptacles themselves say so. They do say they have 'captive screws'.
Figment
Damned Because It's All Connected
Posts: 2845
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 9:32 am
Boat Name: Triton
Boat Type: Grand Banks 42
Location: L.I. Sound

Post by Figment »

I don't know a whole lot about 110v systems on boats, but it seems like a no-brainer that all marine circuit breakers would be GFI breakers.

Not that there's anything wrong with belts and suspenders.
User avatar
Ceasar Choppy
Boat Obsession Medal Finalist
Posts: 622
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:05 am
Location: Port Starboard, MD

Post by Ceasar Choppy »

Just to clarify, there is a difference between a GFI outlet and a circuit breaker...

You only need a GFI at the start of the wired chain because all the "ground fault indicator" does is monitor the difference between the hot and neutral current. If there is an appreciable difference, BAM, it throws the switch. The switch will disconnect the other outlets down the chain. They usually recommend only a GFI at the begining of the chain to prevent unnecessary tripping of the other outlets. I have GFIs on all my outlets without any nuisance tripping but it was just easier for me and they don't trip too often.

A circuit breaker will only trip if the wire is overloaded or heating up. The circuit breakers are there to protect the wiring and should be sized appropriately for the wire.

Note that circuit breakers, and GFI especially, do NOT protect the wiring from a fire due to arcing. In an arcing situation, there isn't a problem that would trip the switch until its too late. Don't ask me how I know that!
JonnyBoats
Candidate for Boat-Obsession Medal
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: Wiscasset, ME
Contact:

Post by JonnyBoats »

I quess I didn't really make my original question clear. Is there such a thing as an ABYC standard for AC outlets? If so, is there some sort of marking that is supposed to be on the outlets to show that they comply with the standard?
John Tarbox
S/V Altair, a LeComte NorthEast 38
http://www.boatmaine.us
User avatar
Ceasar Choppy
Boat Obsession Medal Finalist
Posts: 622
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:05 am
Location: Port Starboard, MD

Post by Ceasar Choppy »

There is no ABYC certification or standard that is stamped on the outlet if that is what you mean.

ABYC has some requirements that it they meet some UL standards, as well as the box that covers it, and then that the outlet be wired properly. That's about it for any specifics.
User avatar
Tim
Shipwright Extraordinaire
Posts: 5708
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:39 pm
Boat Name: Glissando
Boat Type: Pearson Triton
Location: Whitefield, ME
Contact:

Post by Tim »

Other than the UL standards that are incorporated by reference by ABYC E-11, there are not many specifics on the receptacles themselves.
ABYC E-11 AC and DC Electrical Systems on Boats wrote: 11.15.3. FOR AC SYSTEMS

11.15.3.1. Receptacles shall be installed in
boxes that meet the requirements of UL 514A,
Metallic Outlet Boxes, or 514C, Nonmetallic Outlet
Boxes, Flush Device Boxes And Covers.

11.15.3.2. Receptacles shall be of the
grounding type with a terminal provided for the
grounding (green) conductor as shown in FIGURE 12
and FIGURE 13.

11.15.3.3. Power wiring for receptacles shall
be connected so that the grounded (white) conductor
attaches to the terminal identified by the word "white"
or a light color (normally white or silver). The
ungrounded conductor(s) shall be attached to the
terminal(s) identified by a dark color (normally brass
or copper) and, optionally, the letters X, Y, and Z or
L1, L2, and L3.

11.15.3.4. A branch circuit supplying a
combination of receptacle loads and permanently
connected loads shall not supply fixed loads in excess
of the following:

11.15.3.4.1. 600 watts for a 15-ampere circuit;

11.15.3.4.2. 1000 watts for a 20-ampere
circuit.
NOTE: Refer to E- 11.10.2.2 for load calculations.

11.15.3.5. If installed in a head, galley,
machinery space, or on a weather deck, the receptacle
shall be protected by a Type A (nominal 5
milliamperes) Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter
(GFCI). (See E-11.13.)
NOTE: GFCI receptacle devices are not necessarily
ignition protected per E-11.5.1.3.1.
---------------------------------------------------
Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
jollyboat
Candidate for Boat-Obsession Medal
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:51 am
Boat Name: Jollyboat
Boat Type: Pearson Triton
Location: Fairfield County, CT
Contact:

Post by jollyboat »

Tim - You are correct on your hunch as to why the threads on many common house hold 110volt AC devices are knurled. AC or Alternating Current vibrates as when - if you can focus for long enough while being electricuted (been there) - it can be felt as a stream of close pulses. Anyway, the knurled threads help to prevent the screws from backing out and making contact with the housing box or the hot wire.
Brian
Jollyboat, Triton #466
Sepi,Triton #346 (1st, Triton)

No Quarter
Quetzalsailor
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:53 am
Boat Name: Quetzal
Boat Type: LeComte North East 38
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Actually, Caesar, there are Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters which, like Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters, come incorporated into receptacles as well as into breakers and even combo AFCI/GFCI/breakers. Read http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/afcifac8.pdf for more than you might want to know.

Once you've got a GFCI protecting a circuit, either incorporated in the breaker or in a receptacle wired correctly, you don't need more GFCI receptacles downstream. It's only money. Interestingly, sequential GFCIs still work; they're not so sensitive that they nuisance trip. (I had added a GFCI receptacle at exterior eave lighting, and later when I rewired the rest of the circuit upstream and protected the entire exterior wiring by a GFCI upstream, no ill effects were noted and they each trip when tested.)

I think Tim's unfortunately right about marine quality devices. Once you get past the conductors, gaskets and boxes, I don't see any information pointing to the devices, breakers or even buss bars in a panel. Surprizing!

We once spent a very cold start to a Christmas vacation in a beach-front house in which the circuit breaker serving the heater was corroded to useless. The panel was in an enclosed basement and there was still plenty of salt in the air.
User avatar
Ceasar Choppy
Boat Obsession Medal Finalist
Posts: 622
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:05 am
Location: Port Starboard, MD

Post by Ceasar Choppy »

Quetz-- interesting on the AFI.

I'm not aware these are being used widely on boats are they? I also don't think they are incorporated in the Home Despot outlets.
Quetzalsailor
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:53 am
Boat Name: Quetzal
Boat Type: LeComte North East 38
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Ceasar, I've never seen an AFCI for sale, nor in use. One of the sites says that they're now required on specific circuits. My guess is that they're not quite useful, yet; like the GFCIs wern't back in the '70s. They were still new when I wired my house in 1976 with GFCI breakers; one was on a kitchen receptacle circuit; the inspector told me that a GFCI would trip with the resistance load of a toaster! (He was wrong, of course.) GFCIs are old hat and reliable now and I'll bet the AFCIs will be soon.

As noted above, I don't see where any 110v device is marine quality. I suppose the thinking is that the contacts, screws and all are not supposed to get wet but they surely corrode in salt- and moisture-laden air!

I was poking around in a switch box yesterday, trying to figure out how I'd wired it several years ago. I managed to touch both a hot screw on a 3 way switch and the metal box with the probe on my neon circuit tester. I did not need an AFCI to pop that 20 amp breaker!

Quetzal is 37 years old and she has the remains of a number of generations of electrical equipment. I'd like to protect all the 110v wiring aboard with a GFCI. The waterproof Hubbel plug is wired through an unused selector switch labeled 'shore' 'inverter' then on to the Bass panel with its disconnect and breakers. The water heater and the battery charger are protected with breakers in the panel. The one live 110v receptacle is as well and is a GFCI; the four others are disconnected. It would be nice to have the GFCI upstream of, or integral with, the panel to protect me from faults in the wiring, heater and charger.
Quetzalsailor
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:53 am
Boat Name: Quetzal
Boat Type: LeComte North East 38
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Well, as of last week, I see that Home Depot carries both AFCI breakers and receptacles. They're about $40 ea. You won't readily find them; they're screwed to the top of the display area and the devices themselves are out of reach. It's a theft issue.

They are now required on bedroom circuits, can't see why; the explanation was to protect frayed extension cords under beds(!). I'd like to put the breakers in to protect wiring in the attic that seems to attract squirrels.
Quetzalsailor
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:53 am
Boat Name: Quetzal
Boat Type: LeComte North East 38
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Part of the 'scope creep' occurring around the head rebuild project is the entire 110v system. Apparently, there was an original 110v circuit aboard when the boat was new. It was added to with 12/3 stranded but non-tinned old style marine wire in ungrounded metal boxes and in an unknowledgeable/non-Code manner. One receptacle was simply installed into a piece of casework with no box! Then something quit and the string was resupplied from the panel from the other end. I can only hope that the original circuit was removed at its panel end, but I have not found it, yet.

Going to put it all back with tinned, marine quality 12/3, plastic boxes, new receptacles protected at the input end with a GFI, Makore veneered wood receptacle covers. I'd prefer protecting the whole 110v system with the GFI, not just the receptacle circuit.
Quetzalsailor
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:53 am
Boat Name: Quetzal
Boat Type: LeComte North East 38
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by Quetzalsailor »

I have replaced nearly all the 110v wiring and devices in the boat. Plastic boxes, 12-3 tinned stranded Ancor wire, 'Pro grade' 20 amp receptacles. What an absolute pain to do! The stranded conductors are nearly impossible to do neatly; I tried soldering the ends and bending the hook, but you cannot bend the soldered end. I ended up soldering just an eighth of an inch at the end, to keep the strands together. The screws on the devices are captive so there's no using a loop swedged termination. I had three 12-3 cables joining in one box, so I wirenutted them together with pigtails to the device, and I taped the nuts. It all seems pretty suspect to me; what should I have done?

Still to go is the existing pair of receptacles inside and outside of the engine compartment and the homerun to the panel, and presumably the run to the 30amp Hubble deck fitting. What I can see of these is run in ordinary house wire.

One of the pair is a GFCI and is in the engine compartment. The other receptacle is fed by this GFCI, is immediately adjacent but facing into the saloon. Why would anybody need a receptacle in the engine compartment? The other one's right there. (There's no getting any of the wire out of the compartment without completely rewiring the boat and relocating every conductor and panel.)
JonnyBoats
Candidate for Boat-Obsession Medal
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: Wiscasset, ME
Contact:

Post by JonnyBoats »

The stranded conductors are nearly impossible to do neatly; I tried soldering the ends and bending the hook, but you cannot bend the soldered end. I ended up soldering just an eighth of an inch at the end, to keep the strands together. The screws on the devices are captive so there's no using a loop swedged termination. I had three 12-3 cables joining in one box, so I wirenutted them together with pigtails to the device, and I taped the nuts. It all seems pretty suspect to me; what should I have done?
First off wirenuts are a no-no in maribe wiring because a) they trap water and b) they are not tinned copper for marine service but rather steel which rusts (unless of course you found some special marine ones I never heard of).

Next for the wires why not crimp on flanged spade connectors?
Image
John Tarbox
S/V Altair, a LeComte NorthEast 38
http://www.boatmaine.us
User avatar
Ceasar Choppy
Boat Obsession Medal Finalist
Posts: 622
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:05 am
Location: Port Starboard, MD

Post by Ceasar Choppy »

JB has it... the forked terminals that have the ends of the "tines" bent are the best bet. Unless you buy a $50 Hubble marine GFCI outlet that lets you use ring terminals. As I explained earlier, it was a huge pain to use the ring terminals on the outlets.

Wirenuts should be banned on a boat!. In addition to JB's comments, let me add that wirenuts won't hold in an environment subject to movement and vibration.
JetStream
Skilled Systems Installer
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 8:53 pm
Boat Name: Sojourn
Boat Type: Pearson 27
Location: Jamestown, RI

Post by JetStream »

I agree with the previous notes that wire nuts should never be used on a boat. However as a side note, I can report that I have used them quite successfully for submersible boat trailer wiring. I first fill the wire nut with Dow silicon glue (another no-no for boats) then put the wires in and tighten it. No tape is needed and it seems to survive quite well.
Bruce
Quetzalsailor
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:53 am
Boat Name: Quetzal
Boat Type: LeComte North East 38
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Well, then to eliminate the wirenuts, do I tag all the conductors onto the screws of the device, using spade connectors? Max would be two on one screw and one on the other.

Comments about the spiral whoosie in the wirenut being steel ring true until you remember that components in the devices are not corrosion resistant, either.
David

Wirenuts

Post by David »

Butt connectors would have been the way to go instead of wire nuts.

David
Quetzalsailor
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:53 am
Boat Name: Quetzal
Boat Type: LeComte North East 38
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Kosher to gang multiple conductors into butt connectors? Come to think about it, there are connectors designed to take several conductors into one side, look like a very small witches' hat. I wonder if these are available big enough, let alone rated, for 4 #12 stranded?

Pretty easy to do it over again.
Oscar
Candidate for Boat-Obsession Medal
Posts: 320
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:54 pm
Boat Name: Lady Kay IV
Boat Type: 1990 Dragonfly 25
Location: Bethlehem, PA
Contact:

Post by Oscar »

I tried soldering the ends and bending the hook, but you cannot bend the soldered end. I ended up soldering just an eighth of an inch at the end, to keep the strands together.
I work the wire into a hook, then solder it.
Out there, alone, there is only truth.
Post Reply