Recent Progress

[jhenson]

Here are some recent boat pictures-

Decks:





Keel:



Seat Lockers:



There are a couple of more details about these three projects now on my site:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jrhenson2/id1.html

Joe

[Figment]

The first three pics look awfully familiar. Then you had to go and one-up me with the fourth!

Nice work on that cockpit. I'm going to want to pick your brain a bit this winter.

[jhenson]

I'm going to want to pick your brain a bit this winter.

Sure. I don't know how great the information you get will be. I also would like to tap into your experiences with this re-core stuff. It seems like I just took the first stride in yet another marathon project. I'm looking forward to something easy like installing a paper towel rack in the galley.

Joe

[Tim]

Even six years later, it feels like almost yesterday that I was doing the same thing. It's a long road ahead, but you're rolling along with aplomb.

[Figment]

Okay, it's brain-picking time! (yeah, a year late. so?)

How far inboard is the hinge?
Roughly where are the fore and aft ends of your lids? In hindsight, might they have been better a few inches this way or that?

(Pardon my piracy of your website) any chance I could see larger versions of these pics?


Thanks.

[bcooke]

Whoa!!

did I know about that galley stove on your website already? That is a thing of true beauty. I may have to scrap my bulkhead wood heater in favor of that gorgeous item. Now where would I... I mean you... put it?

-Britton

[Rachel]

Wow, that stove is cool -- please tell us about it! I'd give up a settee for that thing! (Note that Britton was only giving up a simple, solid-fuel bulkhead heater ;-)

--- Rachel

[bcooke]

(Note that Britton was only giving up a simple, solid-fuel bulkhead heater ;-)

... I think she is still mad at me...

[jhenson]

Roughly where are the fore and aft ends of your lids? In hindsight, might they have been better a few inches this way or that?

Well, I think I put a private message into Tim to get the measurements on his seat lockers thinking that Pearson would know better than I would. Mine are pretty close in size to the late model Tritons. I can measure mine later today. It seemed convenient to me to locate the forward edge of the locker with the forward edge of the old side cutout. That left me with about 6 inches of seat left aft to work with. I wanted the lockers to be as far aft as possible but still have enough area to attach the gutter sections. The gutter sections were made with a 2" lip (1"at the coamings) for gluing to the underside of the seats. I then ran 4" and 6" biax tape from the lip undersides to underside of the seat surfaces (and up the inside of the coaming supports). To do this I cut the old plywood stringers on the underside of the seats back 6" on the forward edge and completely removed them from the raft edge. The gutters themselves give the seats a good bit of stiffness. I stand on this aft section of the seat all the time as I get off the work ladder and it is very strong.

I wanted the outside edge to be as close to the coaming as possible but still have enough area to glue the gutter lip and attach the hinges. Again, the pictures on Tim's website were used as guidance for the cutouts.

When I solicited opinions about the locker mods here on this forum, I think it was Tim who said that the late model gutters were excessively deep. So, I basically copied the depth of those on a Cape Dory 30 thinking that it was a proven offshore design.

The inside lip of the gutters lie 1/2" below the outer lip to account for the core thickness on the bottom of the lid. I chose plywood for this material so I could inlay aluminum flat bar for drip strips to discourage water from running along the bottom of the lids.

There is a slight "crown" or camber to the cockpit seats. This is a real pain in the neck and ads a slight complexity to this job. To curve the plywood lid core sections, I cut four longitudinal saw grooves (with the table saw depth set at about 2/3 the thickness of the plywood) in the middle of the pieces. These curfs were filled with thickened epoxy and clamped down to a bending jig. I exaggerated the curve of the bending jig a bit, thinking that the plywood would sping back some after removal from the jig. Well, I overcooked the curve a bit and my locker lids have little move curvature than the surrounding seat structure.

BTW, I still have one of the gutter molds in my basement if you need me to refer to it. These were made out of #2 pine attached to plywood bases. Small triangular strips of wood were used along the lip transitions so that I wouldn't have any 90 degree angles during lay-up. I can draw you a cross section of the mold sections if you?re interested. There was a separate mold for the inboard edge of the locker.

I just recently made a mold for the instrument panel recess that replaces the old lazerette opening.



The plan is to make a wooden frame around the recess with a hinged acrylic panel. After, completing the job, I was sitting in the cockpit admiring my work when it suddenly occurred to me that I had just closed off the best access I had for applying core to the underside of the poop deck. Duh!

any chance I could see larger versions of these pics?

My pleasure! I have several others as well if you're interested. It would probably be best to email them to you. Does your ISP have a restriction on the size of file attachments?

Wow, that stove is cool -- please tell us about it! I'd give up a settee for that thing!

Thanks!! I am a consummate scrounger of junk. I chose this stove more for its small size than any other reason. The width corresponds very nicely with that of the wet locker. So, the idea came about to have a foot well (which we discussed here on another thread). I plan to extend the galley forward about the width of the stove.

The stove is a very early Taylors from England. When I called Lavac-Taylors Blake for some missing parts, they informed me that it was one of only a very few brass ones made. I don't know if that is a good thing or not. Newer ones are mainly stainless with brass accents.

I got the stove for cheap in sorry state of disrepair last winter. I hand polished the brass with 2000 grit automotive wet/dry sandpaper during the evenings in front of the tube. It cleaned up very nicely. The steel top casting was repainted with high heat grill paint. I replaced the burners with new Patria diesel/kerosene burners, so the stove should be good to go.

Kerosene aboard a yacht seems to spark as many strong opinions with sailors as does inboards/outboards and halyards led aft. I have never used it before, but I have had pressurized alcohol stoves before, so I'm familiar the pain of preheating the burners. I believe A&H Stoves can modify these for propane use if need be.

Joe

[Figment]

Thanks for all the feedback, Joe.

I have this pesky little voice in my head that's chanting "bigger is better, bigger is better". Is there anything to be lost or gained by extending the opening farther forward? say, 3-4" shy of the bridge deck?
(I'm REALLY hoping that these hatches will eliminate my need to stow lines and sails in the cabin. hush all you roller-furler people!)

I'm interested that you've "molded" your gutters and other pieces. I had planned on building the profile in wood and glassing it in place. Is this a bad idea?

Did you build the hatches from scratch? I was planning on reinforcing and reinstalling the cut-out pieces.

Yes, that stove is pure boat-jewelry!

[Rachel]

This is not a Triton-specific answer, but if the cockpit bench openings get too long, I wonder if it might be a pain to clear them all off each time. Like say if you had cockpit cushions, people, etc. there. If the openings were smaller and there was more room on either side, you might be able to toss such things onto the un-moving section while you opened the lids.

I know I've found that to be the case with saloon settees. On one boat each settee was one long cushion and it was a pain to have to move everything to get in there. On another boat with them split in half, you could just move stuff over onto the half you didn't need to lift.

Might not be a big deal, but just thought I'd mention it.

--- Rachel

[Rachel]

I had to go look up the new version of that stove. It's not as cute as yours, but it's still nice!




I found it here:

http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/taylors_029.htm

[Summersdawn]

This is not a Triton-specific answer, but if the cockpit bench openings get too long, I wonder if it might be a pain to clear them all off each time. Like say if you had cockpit cushions, people, etc. there. If the openings were smaller and there was more room on either side, you might be able to toss such things onto the un-moving section while you opened the lids.

I know I've found that to be the case with saloon settees. On one boat each settee was one long cushion and it was a pain to have to move everything to get in there. On another boat with them split in half, you could just move stuff over onto the half you didn't need to lift.

Might not be a big deal, but just thought I'd mention it.

--- Rachel

2 cockpit lids per side!

[jhenson]

I had planned on building the profile in wood and glassing it in place. Is this a bad idea?

I considered that idea in the planning phase of the project. The more I thought of it though, the more it seemed like the woodworking for these would be more difficult than building molds. I made all four molds in just a couple of easy, short work days. I obsessed about gluing wax paper onto each section, and I realize now that I could have gotten by with ordinary car wax (which I used for the latest instrument panel mold). I could make some now in an afternoon. The molds where pretty easy to make. I made all the outside dimensions a little oversize and used the grinder to bring them to final size.

I definitely think you should use the left over cutouts (skins) for the lid sections. I did this, and though it was a pain to cut out the old plywood stringers, they finished up nicely. I will try to make some diagrams and post here in the few days.

Regarding the size of the lockers:

They could be any size you like. One might argue that an offshore boat might be safer with smaller lockers. But, if you loose the lid, I'd bet you'll be in trouble no matter the size of the opening. I'm not even sure they need to be symmetrical port and starboard. Somewhere I have a picture of a Triton with double cockpit lockers each side, but I wasn't going to add that level of complexity to the project.

Joe

[Ancient Race]

Joe, I don't want to derail your discussion with regard to the cockpit lockers, but I was interested in whether your canopy was a commercially available unit. And if so, where did you get it and has it been serviceable?

(Not that I'm thinking I won't be able to find indoor workspace for the winter. No, there must be plenty of vacant warehouse or industrial space in Cleveland. Plenty. I mean, it's the rustbelt, ain't it?)

Again, sorry for the highjack.

Greg

[jhenson]

I'm a bit of embarrassed to talk about the awning. Feel free to laugh about it (I know my neighbors do). The awning is a 10 X 20 unit that I got at Cosco for about $190. It has sides and ends designed to make it into a temporary garage of sorts. Of course the end pieces are pretty worthless on a 28.5 foot boat. Also, to add clearance above, I had to raise the whole structure a bit. I have many large oak trees down on the back acres of my property, so I used sections of them for 2 foot columns to support the 8 legs of the awning. The legs have bases that are lagged to the top of these oak blocks. I had 70 mph winds last year, and the whole thing didn't even move with each oak block weighing around 200 pounds.

For the most part, I use a fairly high quality 20 X 40 tarp over the structure. The top that came with it stays on under this unless I'm doing a lot of deck work like the recore project. When I need to stand on the decks, I try to roll the "tarp" off in the direction that I'm working.

Last winter, I used the sides to trap some of the heat using a Kerosun heater I have. The big tarp falls over the bow and stern enough to make a heated space of sorts (although the sides don't come to within 2 feet of the driveway. I can't say it was tropical, but I certainly helped.

The tubing is pretty good thick stuff that shows little or no rust after 1 1/2 years of use. However the white top already is showing signs of sun damage. Again, I don't really need it with the tarp that I have.

Other than some owner induced anomalies (like being to lazy to follow the local weather patterns), the boat has remained dry inside. The boat is on asphalt so a lot of heat is radiated from below, and the shade is great in the warm summers here . I considered making a Stimson shed, but I think in this climate, I would have less days to work because of the heat.

All in all, it seems to be a pretty goofy but workable solution for me.

Joe

[jhenson]

Diagrams of Molds:











Sorry for the poor quaility. I had to reduce these down in size for Photobucket, but I can email the originals to enyone interested.

Joe

[A30_John]

I replaced the burners with new Patria diesel/kerosene burners, so the stove should be good to go.

Joe, where did you get your kerosene burners?

Kerosene aboard a yacht seems to spark as many strong opinions with sailors as does inboards/outboards and halyards led aft. I have never used it before, but I have had pressurized alcohol stoves before, so I'm familiar the pain of preheating the burners. I believe A&H Stoves can modify these for propane use if need be.

I had a kerosene stove on a previous boat, and this Spring I installed one on my current boat, replacing the "Origo" non-pressurized alcohol stove. The kerosene replacement worked great this past summer, far exceeding all expectations.

The benefits of kerosene on small boats are many, and I just can't understand why people have this mental block when it comes to preheating a stove. Believe it or not, I've actually talked to people who couldn't imagine enduring the pain of preheating a stove, yet they'll futz around pulling strings on sails, fly spinnakers, walk out on bowsprits, go up the rig in a bosun's chair, and endure other inconveniences on sailboats with nary a concern. But, by golly, when it comes to preheating a kerosene stove, all I hear is, "Oh my Gawd, I can't do THAT!!!" Huge problem.

For those who can endure preheating a stove, however, a kerosene stove avoids the issue of where to put the propane bottles on a small boat, as well as rigging all the propane lines, solonoids, sniffers, etc. that people might want on board to help avoid explosions. You've made a good choice there, Joe - I think you'll really enjoy your stove!

[jhenson]

John,

I got these burners from Force 10 Marine, but they don't carry them anymore. I was also restoring one of their old kerosene bulkhead heaters last winter at the same time and they informed me that they would be droping the burners from their supply. I do know that they are still available for about $75 each from A & H Packstove:

http://www.packstoves.com/

There are only two brands made: Primus and Patria

I have older versions of both and the Primus castings look like they are of higher quality. I don't know if there is much different.

The Primus ones are available through a couple of UK suppliers like Lavac-Taylors-Blakes:

http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/

The price with shipping makes them quite a bit more expensive than US suppliers.

I found it interesting that Patria makes both kerosene only and diesel/kerosene versions. I was told by Force 10 that the diesel/kerosene has slightly larger jets that clog less frequently. However, they burn hotter than the kerosene only version and thus have a shorter life expectancy. They gave me the ones I bought at a great price, so I guess I didn't really care which ones were available.

Do you preheat your burners with alcohol only? I've heard of a paste somewhere and even people who use small torches.

Joe

[A30_John]

I got these burners from Force 10 Marine, but they don't carry them anymore.

So you're the one that bought those, eh? When I called Force 10, they said they had just sold the last burner. ;-) I was able to buy a spare parts kit and some spare gaskets from them so when the time comes I can get another round of life out of my bulkhead furnace. I'll note the names of the other suppliers for future reference. My stove uses a different kind of burner, and I have plenty of spare parts for it.

In answer to your question about preheating, I use a preheat wick. It's a wire "clamp" with wick material wrapped around it. You simply dip it in alcohol, clamp it on to the burner, and light it. After it burns out, light the burner and you're in business. I've never seen the preheat paste. The blowtorch idea sounds interesting, but I'm not sure I'd want to stand there holding a torch for several minutes each time I light the stove. Also, when the stove is preheating with alcohol you can put your pot on and start heating the contents.

[Figment]

I suspect that the "paste" is simply alcohol gel fuel..... sterno fuel.

[jhenson]

It's a wire "clamp" with wick material wrapped around it. You simply dip it in alcohol, clamp it on to the burner, and light it.

Wow! I'd love to see a picture or source reference for that if you know it.

Joe

[Mark.Wilme]

It's a wire "clamp" with wick material wrapped around it. You simply dip it in alcohol, clamp it on to the burner, and light it.

We used to use something similar in the UK when I ran a scout troop to light out "tilley" lamps. Lamps used Paraffin and the wick used 'methalated spirits'.

We then moved to Coleman, white alcohol lamps and these had a little metal cup and a small squeezy bottle that had a long metal tube on it and you squirted the meths into the cup and lit that to preheat.

We also began using the coleman pressure stoves which were similar, again 'white gas' and pre heating with meths.

In all cases there was a metal tank and a small pump so you could build up the pressure.

Neither of these sound that dis-similar - very safe (compared to propane - we used to use them around kids 8 to 21 and would allow the patrol leaders (14+) to use them with training and supervision.

[Rachel]

I was actually thinking "Tilley wick" was the name for the clamp-wick-thing. Reading Mark's post, it must come from using them to light the Tilley lamps.

--- R.

PS: Mark, I should add that your post inspired me to find out what methylated spirits (aka "meths") is called in the US. When I was out sailing we used "meths" to preheat the diesel cabin heater (Sigmar, bulkhead type). It was in one of those squeeze bottles with the really long, metal-tube "snout." I'm not sure this is the prescribed way - I had never used any kind of preheated stove before - but we would squeeze some into the stove burner, then toss in a lighted scrap of toilet paper or "kitchen roll" (aka paper towels) and go from there. The paper would pretty much self-destruct and disappear, so that was why we used it.

Anyway, this stuff was useful for a number of things, chiefly getting rid of annoying sticker residue, and I kept buying various things trying to duplicate it. None of them were right. Of course I should have "Googled" long ago, but I just now did and found that methylated spirits here is called "denatured alcohol." Finally!

[Mark.Wilme]

Rachel, are you originally from the UK ?

and yes - Wikipedia amongst other sources will tell you that 'meths' is denatured alcohol - the pinkish / purplish tinge is because they added something tomake it undrinkable - I seem to remember as a child that the whino's didn't seem to know this.

Color as shown here :



also shown here is the clip on the tilley lamps :

the lamp with the clip installed :


and just the clip

[catamount]

FWIW, I used to prime my old kerosene camp stove (Primus) with ---- kerosene!

Pump up the pressure tank, open the valve, liquid fuel flows out and drips down the burner, close valve when cup is full, light fuel with match, when fire has burned down, open valve and light fuel vapor, use stove.

I use the same procedure with my current multi-fuel camp stove (MSR Whisperlite International), but using Coleman Fuel (white gas). The Whisperlite, by the way, has wick material permanentaly installed around the burner just above the priming cup.

Yes the kerosene as priming fuel is a little smokey, but it works. The smoke might be an issue for an open burner stove in an enclosed cabin (not a problem when camping outdoors), but for a bulkhead heater, I would expect the smoke to go up the flue. But I've not tried it -- yet (I too have an old Force 10 Cozy Cabin D/K heater that I'll be installing soon)

Regards,

[A30_John]

Wow! I'd love to see a picture or source reference for that if you know it.

Joe, here's a picture of the wick I use. It's a shaped piece of wire with fireplace gasket material wrapped around it. The gasket material is fastened in place with a smaller piece of wire.

[jhenson]

John,

Thanks for the info.

Joe