Triton #78 topsides paint

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:26 pm

Started with this

Hours of sanding sanding and sanding leads to this...

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:34 pm

Uncovering some interesting previous repairs....

which leads to lots and lots of fairing and re-fairing work....

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:37 pm

Yeah, I wouldn't have thought the transom could be so far out of fair. I left it for the last bit to do, so of course it's consuming the most product. Go fig.

So that's where I am today. My ambition is to start laying high-build primer this weekend.

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:40 pm

Ahhhh.... I remember when my decks looked like that. My topsides never were quite that bad though.

Looks good. Errr. Bad. But good. You know what I mean!

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:54 pm

I like the camouflage color scheme. That's the purtiest duck boat I've ever seen.

:)

I'm jealous. I can't wait to get started on my own topsides.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:46 pm

I just noticed you don't have any staging set up. How is that? Is it easy enough to reach all of the topsides?

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:51 pm

You know this reminds me of a newbie question I keep forgetting to ask.

When prepping for paint do you need to remove ALL the gelcoat prior to painting or just down past any cracking and crazing? Particularly on the non-skid areas of my deck, the gelcoat is really thick and while a reasonable amount of sanding makes it very smooth I wonder if this is an unstable base to lay paint on.

Looking at Figment it looks like all the gelcoat needs to come off <sigh>

Mike, while it might not be pretty yet, I can definitely appreciate the amount of work to get it to where it is now. Good job.

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:13 pm

For purposes of sanding and fairing, my "staging" is a 7' plank between two ladders. It's curious that this setup isn't shown in any of the photos. I must've snapped them during the only ten minutes of the past month that the ladders have been separate.
I've found that, when pushing sandpaper, it's more advantageous to have the work area at/near chest height than to have a very long run. The ladders allow easy height adjustment simply by resting the plank on the proper rung. Also, the sanding work proceeds slowly enough that the setup only needs to be moved every hour or so at the most.

For painting, I'm going to knock together a series of shortlegged sawhorses to support near-continuous staging planks.

I took a lot of the gelcoat off, but not all. The bright green is the original gelcoat, the bluish green is the underlying resin. The deep green areas, obviously, are where the resin is juuuuust starting to peek through the gelcoat.
Crazed areas were ground down to the resin. Cracks (mostly at the chainplate bulkheads) were gouged back to the resin and filled. Bubbles/blisters revealed themselves during the sanding process as soft spots, were similarly opened and filled.
The first series of photos show the results of some nasty 60grit grinding, erring on the side of caution, leaving some white paint behind.
The later photos show the results of more careful 80grit work, which took care of the rest of the paint and identified gelcoat flaws.

jeez, the white paint looked pretty good in those "before" photos....

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:44 pm

In regards to staging, maybe Tim can be persuaded to post a picture of his setup or maybe they are in another thread around here somewhere. I really liked them. Basically they are tall sawhorses with a rung about half way up so that a staging plank can either rest on top (about four feet if my memory serves) or on the rung (about two feet). The heights seemed about ideal for hull work or deck level work.

I also meant to ask about the sanding system used. 60 grit on a DA seems to take a very long time. The fiberglass and paint guy that works at my yard had suggested I attack my crazed cabin sides with 36 grit paper so I got a box and a soft pad and put them on my grinder since I couldn't find any hook and loop paper for my DA in anything less than 60 grit. Maybe it is the fact that my grinder is only 5" and spins at 12,000 rpm but the results were less than stellar. Besides the high risk of cutting divits into the base material, even a smooth and level job left deep scratches behind.

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:07 pm

This is not a good picture, but it gives the idea:

I can't imagine using anything less aggressive than 40 grit on a DA for initial heavy grinding. That takes long enough....

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:13 pm

Here's another not great shot of the staging.

rshowarth · Post by **rshowarth** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:43 pm

OK I'll ask.

Is there such a thing as just roughing up the gelcoat where it needs patching and then filling and painting? Or is that just a mediocre job?

Nathan-

That paint job looks great.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:55 am

Funny you should ask. Pick up a copy of the most recent Cruising World (might not be on newsstands yet). They did two articles dealing with topsides paintjobs, one by a pro yard, one a DIY'er, and neither of these guys did much of anything with the gelcoat. I think they did an 80grit scuff-job, primarily to help highlight minor dings and soft spots.

Of course, the pro was dealing with a basically-new boat, and the DIYer was dealing with a boat that might have been 10-15 years old at the most. And I think both boats were painted white. Laying a dark(ish) color on a 40+ year old boat is (I can't resist) a horse of a different color.

HA!!!

(it's one of those mornings)

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:12 am

I think it depends on the condition of the gelcoat. There's nothing wrong with gelcoat as a substrate, per se as long as it is in good condition. The gelcoat on my hull was still largely in place when I did the repaint. Note that it had been Awlgripped once before, but in the places where I sanded through the primer, there was still LOTS of gelcoat. I was lucky that the people who had 'gripped the hull had done a good job with prep so my hull prep work was pretty minor compared to Figment's.

But I digress.

I think that if your gelcoat is in good shape, than no, it is fine to just do the 80 grit and repairs where necessary. If you are going with a thin paint like Awlgrip you'll still need to buff it out to 320 grit or higher, but you don't need to remove all the gelcoat from the boat. Do as much as you need to get the good finish, but there's no need to do extra work if it isn't required by the prexisting conditions.

For comparison, here are my decks vs my hull....

(Sorry to hijack your thread Mike!)

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:57 pm

no hijack at all. all good, pertinent information.

Wetsanding??? That's the finish primer coat then?

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:09 pm

No, no, cleaning the hull before sanding.

Oh, and, what, did you steal that boat or something that you had to blur out your hull registration numbers?

;-P

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:21 pm

I thought the boat was in the witness protection plan, like it had turned state's evidence in some new jersey development deal and had to be relocated. Maybe I've watched too many Law and Order reruns......

r

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:30 pm

I lost my wallet a few weekends ago, so I'm still a bit hypersensitive to identity theft issues. No sense making it any easier for the bad guys. (says the jackass who left his wallet on the counter at a gas station)

So I may be almost done with the fairing. That'll be a cool milestone. This afternoon I puttied (what I should hope to be) the last of the little airbubble holes in (what was to be) the final application of fairing compound. She might not be dead-nuts fair, but she's as good as I'm going to get her this year.

I really am alarmed at how out-of-fair the hull was. I knew I had some hard spots at the chainplate bulkheads, but I really wasn't expecting all of this. Man it's amazng what some not-so-glossy white paint will hide! Those spots on the transom were a full 1/4" off the batten!

Post by **Tim** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:48 am

Here is a link to a description of the staging I built. There are two levels for the planks--the upper one for working on the decks, and the lower one for hull work. Of course, this staging is optimized for a boat of around 4' draft.

http://www.tritondaysailor.com/sidebars/staging.htm

It's always, always, always worth the time and effort to build a complete set of staging for a major project--a real time-saver in the end.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:05 am

As far as how much sanding is required for a new paint job...

Frankly, you need to do as much as you need to do. There's no hard and fast rule--it depends greatly on the condition of the current paint, if any, and/or the substrate (which for the purposes of our discussion will be gelcoat).

Typically, on an old boat like a Triton or similar vintage, one will find that the gelcoat is only in fair condition at best, and will often require substantial sanding to remove flaws and crazing. The gelcoat is also very soft, and sands easily--leading to the camo look like Figment. My experience sanding the daysailor hull was very similar, and the net result was about the same as seen on Figment above.

60 grit paper is usually not powerful enough for a serious paint removal job, like these. I use 36 or 40 grit often for the initial stock removal, then onto 80 and beyond. One will probably not find anything heavier than 60 grit for a hook and loop sander, as these sanders are not for serious grinding. 40 grit is starting to become serious paper. It will leave deep scratches in any surface, but if there is a lot of material to be removed it is the only way to start.

Great care must be used with such powerful paper. It's very easy for the uninitiated to cause more damage than help with something like 36 grit. I wouldn't recommend using it on gelcoat unless you plan to remove the gelcoat completely, in which case it's the proper grit. To just sand gelcoat, 36 or 40 grit will leave scratches that are so deep as to be extremely hard to remove. For paint removal, or bulk epoxy filler sanding, 36/40 grit is great--but only for the roughest sanding. One should switch to 80 grit as soon as the worst is over, to avoid overscratching the surface. And on plain gelcoat, for regular sanding, 80 grit is about all that is necessary.

As usual, I recommend the excellent McMaster-Carr sanding discs. They are not cheap, but they are the best ever. Period. They have many diameters and grits available. I'm sure I've posted the direct link here any number of times.

I used a combination of tools and grits to remove old Awlgrip from the daysailor hull. The Awlgrip was so hard as to resist easy sanding, so I began with 40 grit on an 8" grinder, to just break the surface. (I don't have a picture of this stage, seemingly.)

Then, I switched to 40 grit on my 5" DA, until I had just begun to go through the primer beneath the paint.

Finally, I went to 80 grit on the DA to remove the final vestiges of primer and paint, and expose the gelcoat beneath. (The white marks are old filler covering a grinder butcher job by some previous hull worker.)

Much later, of course, I refaired the whole hull. I was not concerned about sanding marks in the gelcoat since I knew that such substantial fairing and surfacing would occur later. But sometimes, you need a strong grit just to get through the material, so you often end up sanding more than hoped for by nessessity.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:07 pm

Today was high-build primer day. Four coats at 2-hour intervals.
Either there's something REALLY wrong with my application technique, or I grossly overestimated the amount of product required. I should have had just enough product for 3 coats, with a tad left over for followup/touchup work.
The 4 coats applied today used roughly 1/3 of the product.

I'm not entirely sure of how I should proceed. Should I continue laying coat after coat along the thought that more is better? Or should I just start sanding, taking comfort in the thought that I have plenty of product on hand if I should need to do it all over again?

I think I favor the latter.

It's cool to have a white boat again, though.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:22 pm

DOH!!!!

Yep, I overestimated the material volume.
Product data says 84sf/gallon coverage. 150sf of hull area means I need two gallons of product, right?

For some reason, I ordered two gallons of primer, PLUS the requisite two gallons of converter, PLUS the requisite gallon of reducer.
It never occured to me that this adds up to FIVE gallons of product.

Yep, I've used about two gallons so far. Right on target.
I really do have my head up my ass lately.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:34 pm

After getting past the whole primer volume snafu, I stepped back and realized that a coat of white had completely transformed the boat, the atmosphere in the shed, and me.

That super-build primer is some wonderful stuff. Those four coats built up a remarkable film thickness, and man it is silky-smooth to sand. I'll wager that when spray-applied it's an absolute miracle. Rolled-and-tipped, however, the first 30% of that thickness was lost to brushmarks. Understandably, it's such a high-solids product that it has almost no self-leveling properties at all.
After longboarding, a few spots here and there had some remnants of the brushmarks. Pinholes, really, but enough to make me paranoid that a followup coat of the superbuild wouldn't suffice.
What's a little more goop at this point?

sigh. It was nice to have a clean white boat for a couple of days.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:26 am

It broke my heart to spoil the pristine surface of the high-build by covering it with finishing primer.

I must say, though, that the boat looks pretty good in grey. If this whole blue thing doesn't do it for me, gunmetal gray may be in the running.

Time is running short, however. I need this stuff to cure FAST. Launch day is a week from tomorrow.

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:38 am

I'm really really intrigued by the idea of silver awlgrip for the whole hull, myself.

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:39 am

Figment wrote:Time is running short, however. I need this stuff to cure FAST. Launch day is a week from tomorrow.

Yikes! That topcoat is going to be really soft! Secondary cure really takes a couple weeks at least. Truck or slings?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:14 am

yeah, I'm worried about that.

Both. Truck with slings. The aft pads don't touch above the waterline. The front hit above the waterline by a few inches, but I think I can get them to run a sling between those pads so that the pressure is borne below the waterline. These guys are the best, but still I'm worried.

I figure I'll give it the ol' thumbnail test that morning and either wave them in or wave them off.

I'm actually more worried about dock fenders than I am about the trailer, but my dock-neighbor hasn't even removed his winter cover yet, so I'm certain that I can run lines across to the far finger and leave her a couple of feet from the dock for a few weeks.

jollyboat · Post by **jollyboat** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:56 am

[quote "The Awlgrip was so hard as to resist easy sanding"]

Wow, and I thought I was all alone. I started the paint reamoval on 466 just two days ago and it has been very difficult. I am pretty sure that Awlgrip is the culprit for this trouble as well. I am using my Portacable DA with 80 grit and making very slow progress. I also gave my two grinders a shot as Tim had commented before to break the surface up a bit but currently I have very soft Ferro pad chucked up in the grinder so it was not very effective. My arms are like jello right now. More suffering tonight - after work. I love my Triton though - she's worth it![/quote]

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:53 am

dasein668 wrote:I'm really really intrigued by the idea of silver awlgrip for the whole hull, myself.

Isn't Good Goose silver? or you mean REALLY silver?

Mettalic? I saw a boat last summer that had a metallic blue paint job. It wasn't really my cup of tea, but it was cool as another guy's boat.

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:41 am

Silver.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:34 pm

Yeah, baby! that's positively shag-a-riffic!

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:38 pm

Tim wrote:Just paint already! Some of us are anxiously awaiting this transformation.

Are you suggesting that I go from 180grit to 400grit without sanding at 220 and 320?!!!!!!!!!

I'm going as fast as the products and weather will allow, eh?
It's not like I'm sitting on my hands. when it became clear that the finish primer wasn't going to be sandable yesterday, I made a snap-decision to do a "barrier coat" on the bottom.

See, amid all these months of topsides work, I've been doing some bottom fairing here and there. Whenever I had some fairing compound leftover from this or that, rather than letting it cook off in the pot, I'd find a spot on the bottom and put it to good use. I guess I had lots of leftovers, because the bottom is REALLY fair now. I figured it couldn't hurt to barrier-coat all of those various applications of goo.

Of course, you never see those dozens of little pinholes until you paint it all one color.....

It's a good thing I had a few tablespoons of fairing compound left!

First topcoat will probably go on tomorrow. The finish primer sanded as exquisitely as the high-build. I gotta say, these last few steps have been pretty gratifying. The whole surface goes from lumpy to luxury in the course of an afternoon.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:47 pm

Speaking of things that break my heart, man it's really going to hurt to have to ease all of these razor-crisp edges.

I'm so incredibly tempted to leave them sharp, but I know that my pragmatic side will win the day.

This pic also captures my Big Bonehead Move of this whole project. I should've cut out that stupid exhaust outlet on day one! I can't count the hours I've spent finger-sanding around that obnoxious little nub.

Post by **Tim** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:35 am

Figment wrote:
Tim wrote:Just paint already! Some of us are anxiously awaiting this transformation.
Are you suggesting that I go from 180grit to 400grit without sanding at 220 and 320?!!!!!!!!!

Sorry--I wasn't clear enough. I was actually referring to the humidity discussion on the other page when I wrote that! Certainly I would never suggest skipping crucial steps, like proper sanding.

Just giving you a hard time! It's tough being under the microscope, no?

Post by **Tim** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:37 am

Figment wrote:This pic also captures my Big Bonehead Move of this whole project. I should've cut out that stupid exhaust outlet on day one! I can't count the hours I've spent finger-sanding around that obnoxious little nub.

I hate those original exhaust outlets!

You're going to need one of these now:

Post by **dasein668** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:48 am

I like them so much that I used two...

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:17 pm

ok, ok, so it's blue,

and, as I breathe a sigh of significant relief, the hull is adequately fair in its first view with a glossy coat. A slight wiggle in one spot, and one flat spot at that old repair that I just couldn't put completely right without completely re-doing, but on the overall it's far better than I had feared.

Interesting first-coat experience. Initially I found myself thinking "wow, this surface is actually taking the topcoat very well", but it didn't take long for that to change to "this is taking waaaaay too much paint." I couldn't get it to go on thin enough. In retrospect, I should have immediately changed from the mohair roller to a foam roller, but instead I tried to thin it with more reducer. and more. and more.

So I have some spots that are basically one big zone of sag from the early going of a very heavy coat, and then some later spots that are milky runs as a result of the over-thinned mixture. I have some sanding ahead of me.

I'm encouraged by the curing of the coat, however. A mere 4 hours after application several spots were already so well-cured that I couldn't make a fingerprint.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:50 pm

Afterthought: Does Alexseal require a minimum "induction time" between mixing and application?

I don't remember reading anything about that in the product info, but I might have missed it, and I think I gave it less than 5 minutes today. Just enough time to get roller and brush set up and pour through a filter. hmph.

Post by **Tim** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:47 am

Wow, the color looks great!

The first coat is always a learning experience. The excess sanding will be annoying, but now you have a better idea how to proceed with your subsequent coats. Thin, thin, thin is the key! It's much easier to put on too much than too little.

I had good luck with the mohair rollers and have never liked foam rollers, as they just don't hold enough paint at all. I think the key with a mohair might be to adjust the size of the area over which you spread the rollerful of paint, to avoid the heavier thickness. And also to avoid overloading the roller in the first place. A little of this product goes a very long way!

As with everything, by about your final coat on this boat you'll have the magic touch...just in time to be done. Then you can start considering how much better you'll do "next time"!

But it looks great, nonetheless. It sure is great to get to the color stage!

I'm not aware of a specific induction time. But it doesn't hurt at all to mix the topcoat and converter, then do your final wipedown, pre-clean your application tools, and that sort of thing, before you add the reducer and begin painting. The paint will never kick off in the pot on you; it lasts for days.

And don't worry about minor unfairness. It's never noticeable in the water, and all these boats have plenty of undulations in the hull. Trying to get it perfect is an exercise in impossibility!

Post by **dasein668** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:59 am

Tim wrote:Wow, the color looks great!

And how!

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:16 am

I think the mohair vs. foam roller thing might be like the badger vs. foam brush thing for varnish. If you're accustomed to using one, keep on using it.

I'm accustomed to using foam rollers. I think I should not have changed horses midstream.

Or the foam could be an even bigger disaster when it reacts uncomfortably with a chemical in the converter, and I'll be back to the mohair for that magical 3rd coat!! :)

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:25 pm

Well, the foam roller solved the over-application problem. Possibly a bit too well. I don't think I laid on enough paint for the brushstrokes to self-level. Overcompensation, whoodathunkit?

I'm conflicted. I remember how gloriously self-leveling that first coat was. That came with other unsightly consequences, of course, but it's making me wonder if I shouldn't try continue in pursuit of that happy middle ground.

eh, I'll see how it looks in the light of morning, make the phonecall to find out just how delayed a delayed launch would be, and flip a coin.

Post by **Tim** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:04 am

I know what it's like rushing to meet a "firm" deadline. I always have my own deadline in mind when working to complete any project, and know the frustration when things don't seem to be falling into place as you wish.

I also know the temptation to just get the job done so that you can check it off and move on But with an expensive paint job like this, I think it would be preferable to keep at it till you get a coat that is satisfying to you. These paints are unlike any other, and there is always a learning curve involved with application. You may be happier later for a slight delay now.

Good luck with the next coat! Third time's the charm.

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:18 am

It is a beautiful-looking colour in the photos in the shelter. I'm watching closely, since I have a paint job in my future.
I've hunted around and didn't manage to find where you might have said what the paint and colour is?

p.s. Are the runs amenable to wet sanding with very fine paper? I have been delighted with how unpainted gelcoat cleans up and shines that way.

Post by **Tim** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:59 am

It is possible to nib/sand/buff Alexseal paint; there's a very specific procedure sanctioned by the company. If anyone wants, I can reproduce it here. The paint should be new and soft for best results; after a few weeks the paint becomes so hard as to make this process less viable.

That paint is Alexseal Stars & Stripes Blue, H5161.

Post by **dasein668** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:12 am

So it turned out that Alexseal had the color after all? I seem to remember a discussion that they didn't actually have it... I'm assuming it isn't a custom mix since it has a stock number.

Post by **Tim** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:15 am

dasein668 wrote:So it turned out that Alexseal had the color after all? I seem to remember a discussion that they didn't actually have it... I'm assuming it isn't a custom mix since it has a stock number.

No, that was Awlgrip that no longer carried this as a stock item.

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:22 am

Tim wrote:That paint is Alexseal Stars & Stripes Blue, H5161.

Thanks, Tim. I remember seeing a discussion about that colour, now that you mention it, and it really does seem special.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:34 pm

Tim wrote: Good luck with the next coat! Third time's the charm.

oh, um, did forget to mention that this last was the 3rd coat? The second was similarly disappointing. Embarrassing, really.

After a good night's rest I picked up the phone and bumped the launch by a couple of weeks. It's only money.

Here's hoping that the fourth time is the charm!

Post by **Tim** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:55 pm

Figment wrote:
Tim wrote: Good luck with the next coat! Third time's the charm.
oh, um, did forget to mention that this last was the 3rd coat? The second was similarly disappointing. Embarrassing, really.

After a good night's rest I picked up the phone and bumped the launch by a couple of weeks. It's only money.

Here's hoping that the fourth time is the charm!

As a matter of fact you didn't mention that. You let that second coat slip by unnoticed by the peanut gallery. Shame on you.

Just think of all the valuable experience you're gaining, though!

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Triton #78 topsides paint

Triton #78 topsides paint

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