Cold molding older wooden boats

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The Good Goose
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Cold molding older wooden boats

Post by The Good Goose »

Anyone have any experience good or bad with older wooden boats that have been cold molded? Good idea ? Bad idea? What should you look for as far as quality of the job in such a boat? I'm going to look at a 36 foot alden yawl tomorrow that is so cheap it's unbelieveable. Maybe I'll believe it when I see the boat. According to the owner the boat was cold molded in 82 and they've never had water in the bilge since.

Is this just a newer version of glassing over wooden hulls with all the same problems or is it a fairly permanent solution?

How about canvas decks? Best to leave them canvas or change them over to something else? Supposedly there are some soft spots on the deck. Owner said no leaks through to the cabin yet so hopefully the deckbeams are ok.

Owner said the boat hit a rock. when the boat was relaunched it started leaking. Kept it in the slings overnight still leaking in the morning. Noticed seperation in the hull to keel joint. What should I look for, be concerned about in this area?

Please convince me that a 70 year old wooden boat no matter how beautiful is a really dumb thing to buy. I already know this but I am going to look at it anyway. Why? I hope it is in horrible shape.


Thanks
Brock
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Post by bcooke »

So Brock you are saying that this is a traditionally constructed wooden boat that has has a cold molded shell wrapped around it?

If that is the case then I can say that I have seen this done well but this isn't always the case. I think the concern is that the original frames and planking continue to shrink/swell while the epoxy encapsulated shell doesn't move. What tends to happen is that the older, more fragile, orginal structure tends to break up since the shell restricts its movement. That isn't really a problem so long as the shell is structurally sound in its own right. If, however, it was applied as a bandaid and needs the internal structure of the original structure to support itself then you need to watch it carefully. I remember the chief restorer at Mystic Seaport museam being asked about adding a cold molded shell to an old traditional boat and his answer was equally vague. Look for signs of movement between the two structures and hope for the best. Keeping in mind that the shell is a repair of an already flawed structure.

I personally think canvas decks, properly maintained, are fine and wouldn't replace them unless there was widespread failure.
Please convince me that a 70 year old wooden boat no matter how beautiful is a really dumb thing to buy
Brock, buying an old wooden boat is a really dumb idea.

Life as you know it will cease. You will grow a beard (to catch the bits of oatmeal you missed at breakfast) swear flannel is back in fashion, and begin to argue that epoxy was created by the devil himself.

You know that columnist in the first part of WoodenBoat magazine that writes about his boat Content? He is not trying to be funny. He simply owns a wooden boat.

Think about it.

Then again, nothing feels like a wooden boat under foot in a swell. (Hey, what was that creaking sound? Is that amount of water in the bilge normal? Man! I can throw a spanner through that crack there...) They feel like a real living creature but never forget that they are much more jealous than fiberglass boats. Think "High Maintenance" times ten.

There is just something about a boat made from organic materials though. (They ROT!)

The good news is that a cold molded boat is basically a fiberglass boat using wood fibers instead of glass. To my mind they are not really wooden boats at all, simply another form of composite construction. The WoodenBoat magazine empire disagrees but they have an economic interest in the argument. I am rambling, time for bed...

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Post by catamount »

I believe there was an article on cold-molding over a wooden boat in Good Old Boat magazine. A search of their index suggests the July/August 2001 issue (#19) -- "Mustang forever (Restoration Relived)" by Brian and Christine King -- although the keywords there seem to be about "glassing" rather than a cold-molded overlay. I haven't gone to dig out my back issues, but my recollection is that they didn't just glass it, rather they did put a cold-molded overlay on first.
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Post by Tim »

There's a huge difference between glassing over a wooden boat and adding cold-molded strips over the existing planking.

While I think that neither method is really the proper way to maintain the longevity of a wooden boat, glassing over a wooden hull is a desperate measure to extend the life of a boat for a few more years--mostly suited to commercial craft where the boat's sole purpose is to make money for its owner. In these cases, glassing over can be a legitimate "repair", as even a bad job can extend the life of the hull for many years before it falls apart completely.

I'd never look at fiberglassing as a permanent repair, or one that was good for the boat in the long run. If all you want is 10 years, then it's fine.

Cold molding additional planking over an existing hull is probably a better option, though I have to wonder why one wouldn't just repair the original boat in the first place. (Cost...right.) If you can't face the idea or cost of repairs to the boat you own, you shouldn't own the boat. Period. If the internal scantlings of the boat have deteriorated to the point that they are no longer supporting the boat, then the cold molding is simply a band-aid and not a proper repair. If the internal scantlings are in good condition, then what's the point of the overlay? The boat should have had its planking addressed if that was the issue.

Too many people get into wooden boats for the supposed romance and whatever other benefits there are supposed to be, only to find that they're incapable, unwilling, or too budgetly-challended to properly maintain the boat. So, unable to face what it would take for a proper repair to the boat that would keep her sailing for another 40 or 100 years, they adapt some seemingly more affordable version of "repair" that makes things all hunky-dory again...or so they think.

But does any sort of repair to a wooden boat, other than a proper rebuild using similar techniques and materials to those used originally, really help the boat over the long haul? I say they do not. I say that something like cold molding over the original hull is only hoping to stabilize a boat that had become too unsafe to use...and too expensive to repair. It sure wouldn't be what I would want to own.

Many wooden boats are beautiful. So are a lot of fiberglass boats.

Not all wooden boats are beautiful; neither are all fiberglass boats.

Many wooden boats are in terrible shape. So are many fiberglass boats.

Wooden boats never forgive an utter dearth of maintenance; most fiberglass boats will happily forgive this.

Trying to make a wooden boat into a fiberglass boat is probably the worst thing I can think of.

I personally would stay away from any wooden boat that had been repaired in some less-than-optimum fashion, unless I wanted to undertake the appropriate re-repairs.

A 70 year old wooden boat isn't a boat. It's a lifestyle, and your mistress forever. Add in the possible negative consequences of a questionable repair and you have a pretty scary situation, I think.
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Post by CharlieJ »

When I was building my trimaran, I had a next door neighbor in the boat yard who was rebuilding a wooden Stone Horse by cold molding over the planking.. He was a comsumate pro and here's the steps he took-

1- Cleaned out the entire boat, redid any cracked or damaged frames and refastened all planking.

2- planed down the original planking slightly so the new hull size wouldn't be hugely different.

3- Routed all the planking lands and splined them with like wood ( cedar ) using WEST epoxy to glue in the splines.

4- THEN he laid on 3 diagonal opposing layers of western red cedar, set in epoxy and glassed over that.

It was a very successful rebuild, but it wasn't easy, it wasn't cheap and it wasn't quick. He wound up with a beautiful boat that he would have low maintenance on for the life of the boat.. But remember- this was a 21 footer. It took him 3 years of weekends and evenings to do the complete refurb, including the new interior, decks, etc.

Another one that comes to mind is the Carr's on thier over 100 year old wooden boat that they sail in the high latitudes. They had that boat coldmolded over the original planking to lower the maintenance effort. They had it professionally done at heavy expense. But they also wound up with a boat that required much less maintenance than before.

Done correctly, cold molding can be a very successful rebuild- done poorly it would be a horror.

You have to look at the boat and decide which that one is.

My trimaran was build using the coldmolding technique by the way- 3 diagonal layers on the amas and 4 on the main hull, so I am quite familiar with the process.
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Post by Rachel »

CharlieJ wrote: My trimaran was build using the coldmolding technique by the way- 3 diagonal layers on the amas and 4 on the main hull, so I am quite familiar with the process.
Oh I never knew that, Charlie - I just assumed it was plywood/epoxy put together in the more usual way.

Brock: You will post photos if you go to look it over, won't you?

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Post by The Good Goose »

Went to look at the boat today. It never ceases to amaze me how people can describe a nearly derelict boat in glowing terms. This boat is rough rough rough. I would say the whole deck the cockpit floor and a good portion of the cabin top need replacement. At least half the deck beams have signifigant rot. Little or no varnish on any Brightwork. Wood trim broken damaged or missing. This would make Tim's 381 project look like a quick little repair by comparison. Talking to the owners wife I expected to see a well cared for wooden boat in need of a few major repairs and alot of minor ones. a bunch of the sole is cut out and whats left is spongy underfoot. The keel is badly seperated from the deadwood. The cold molded hull looks ok for the most part but it has hundreds of small blisters in the paint that make one wonder what is causing them.

Looks like this boat had a pretty thorough going over 24 years ago when the cold molding was done and not much since. I would think this would take 1-2 years of full time non stop work to get this boat back into shape. The boat is a 36 foot 1936 Alden yawl design # 136 it is listed in the wooden boat classifieds for 12,000 but was in the Burlington VT paper for 6,000 . She is a very pretty boat but I don't see her sailing again any time soon.

If anyone out there is in need of a serious project they don't come much more serious than this one. on the plus side it did have new standing rigging and a brand new professionly installed electrical breaker panel and new wiring. Kind of odd to rewire a boat with this kind of structural problems. Kind of sad to see such a beautiful boat in such bad shape.

Thanks for all the input. As I said to my wife " I'm really glad the boat didn't look great." It would have been very hard to resist and I know even if it was in perfect shape the work load would have been staggering.
As the boat sat, if the owner said, "look I just want to be done with it you can have it" I would have said no thanks.

sorry my camera was broken so no pictures.
Thanks again for the input
Brock
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Post by Noah »

When I saw your first post I immediately knew which boat this was...I have looked at it for a bunch of years. Yeah, she is in sad shape. Particularly the keel, which has been oozing for some time...probably not much left to it...

The blisters in the paint are formed my aluminum oxide. The original cold-molding used aluminum staples. It probably isn't structural, but it isn't a good thing either.

She is a pretty hull shape though. Sorry I didn't see this thread earlier and chime in.
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Post by keelbolts »

It looks like the decision has been made, but, for future readers, I want to toss in my two cents worth. I have been a steward to a wooden boat for almost 20 years and I now own a plastic boat. I won't lie - I got the plastic boat because the wood one is so labor intensive. Wooden boats only make sense for people who are REALLY into the boats themselves. You don't buy a wooden boat because it is the cheapest way to sail off into the blue. You buy it because you love it. Not what you can do with it, but it. My wooden boat is for sale and I'd love to see some young or prosperous guy take her off my hands so I'd have more time to sail my plastic boat, but there's an elegance to a wooden boat that has rarely been seen on a plastic boat. There is a satisfaction that comes from owning and caring for a thing of beauty. Granted, it's better for the soul than it is for the back. A smart person buys a classic wooden boat for the same reason he buys a classic automobile. You don't buy a '57 Chevy because it's fast.

Finally, before writing off cold-molded wooden boats look up Tim & Pauline
Carr's Curlew. It's a hundred years or more old, cold-molded, and has carried them all over the world for many, many years.

Fiberglassing an old wooden boat is another thing altogether. It's more or less an exercise in taxidermy.
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How much deeper would the ocean be without sponges in it?
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Post by bcooke »

It's more or less an exercise in taxidermy.
An excellent analogy!
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Post by CharlieJ »

keelbolts wrote: Finally, before writing off cold-molded wooden boats look up Tim & Pauline
Carr's Curlew. It's a hundred years or more old, cold-molded, and has carried them all over the world for many, many years.
Actually Curlew is a planked wooden boat that had a cold molded layer ( or layers really) added. As I said in my first post way back there, it wasn't cheap and it isn't an easy job.

And Curlew is STILL engineless by the way. The places they take that old wooden gaff cutter and the things they do with her, are amazing
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Post by keelbolts »

When he cold-molded Curlew, Tim Carr did something that I thought was very nifty. After setting the fasteners to the desired depth. he went over the entire hull with a drill with a collar set to a depth equal to the thickness of the laminations he planned to apply. Then, all he needed to do to plane the hull down the desired amount was to plane the holes away. Don't you just love the simplicity in that technique?
Celerity - 1970 Morgan 30

How much deeper would the ocean be without sponges in it?
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