Cockpit lockers and fuel tank while I'm in there.

Mark.Wilme · Post by **Mark.Wilme** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:15 pm

Going back to your fuel tank for a second ...

Is there a reason why you couldn't use a removable 5 otr 6 gallon fuel tank. Make a base and some straps to lock it down and a vapor tight fitting via the fill spout for the supply and return lines.

Then you'd never need to worry about thee deck fill, you keep two identical tanks. When you need to fill up you remove the empty or almost empty tank, replace it with the full tank and then put the empty tank into your car or truck and drive to the gas station to refill it.

I use a 5 gallon jerry can to top up the tank on our boat every fall so it truly is full for the winter (as well as to carry as spare fuel if I ever need it), this year I didn't get to fill up before the haul out so over a series of trips to the boat I was able to completely fill the tank this way.

On our prior boat which has a 10 gallon tank I never even went to the fuel dock, I always filled up when the tank was 1/3 full, from the can "dockside" and filtered the fuel using the West Marine filter mentioned a few weeks ago in another post.

Just a thought.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:34 am

Two things about portable gasoline tanks:

1. Most plastic portable gas tanks have a material permeability that is unsuitable for use belowdecks (that is, the plastic itself allows gasoline vapors through). This goes for a lot of permanently-mounted plastic gasoline tanks too. Typically, the red plastic is not suitable for unvented spaces, whereas the black plastic is meant for permanent belowdecks installation.

2. Portable tanks are vented through the caps, which necessitates storage in an open area with proper ventilation. Again: no belowdecks storage.

Remember that accidents involving gasoline don't happen accidentally; they happen because someone shortcutted the known safety precautions, whether by using inappropriate materials or neglecting proper installation, usage, or maintenance.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:11 pm

(mold for a) Daysailing Icebox:

Trimmed, rounded, and a screed of fairing compound for the compound-curved bottom.

Hatch gutter molds, with a coat of paint curing over the heater.

Mark.Wilme · Post by **Mark.Wilme** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:49 pm

Always love pics.... Thanks Mike

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:42 am

Those gutter molds look very familiar. You're well underway with the process.

I didn't think of using paint as a release agent. I went to lots of trouble using wax and wax paper.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:49 am

Oh, I still plan on a coat of wax. I had the rattlecan of rustoleum sitting there and figured it couldn't hurt.

Does PVA work with epoxy, or is it just a polyester thing? I think I have a bottle from waybackwhen sitting on a dusty shelf somewhere.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:02 am

Thanks for the pics!

I think the paint on your molds is a good idea because it'll probably make the wax easier to apply and more effective, too. Plus, the paint is an additional release agent, if need be.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:17 am

But then I remembered the icebox. I might want a more positive closure on that lid. hmmmmmm. I'll come up with something.

would this be a bit over the top?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:17 pm

I slathered a LOT of wax on these molds yesterday. Release should be a non-issue, and the product might even be a bit more fair as a result. maybe. hopefully.

I gave the wax a quick buff, and started cutting strips of 6" lightweight tape for the first layer.

The lay of this light stuff was fairly easy, though some of the little nooks at the hinge pockets were clearly misconceived.

In order to minimize the potential for inadvertently lifting a bubble, I waited a couple of hours for this first layer to green-cure before following with a layer of mat (simply because I had it laying around), and then biax tape.

Again I grossly underestimated the amount of epoxy required to wet-out such a heavy buildup. Surely there must be some rule of thumb or even an outright calculation that can take X weight of material times Y area of said material requires Z volume of resin, but I don't know it.
Anyone?

Post by **Tim** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:04 am

Figment wrote:Surely there must be some rule of thumb or even an outright calculation that can take X weight of material times Y area of said material requires Z volume of resin, but I don't know it.

I'm sure such calculations exist, particularly in light of today's technology of resin infusion and dry-stack laminates. But calculations related to these techniques would, of course, be irrelevant to hand layups, since no hand layup can remotely approach the resin/fabric ratio of vacuum infusion.

I've never heard of any rule of thumb for hand layups. It takes what it takes. Experience helps in determining what you need, but even then one just never knows for sure. I've erred in both directions many times, but normally get pretty close for smaller wetouts now.

Material like heavy biax takes substantial resin to wet out, even if that much resin isn't strictly needed in the laminate; in other words, it takes more to get it wet than it takes to truly wet it out. (Does that make sense?) Once the stuff is wet, one can frequently squeegee out substantial amounts of resin.

And of course, without vacuum pressure or some such, it typically takes more resin to help your material stick to a curved and contoured mold than it might to simply lay the material on a flat surface.

I suspect one could calculate all one wanted, and still end up with the wrong amount of mix. If there actually is some sort of formula, I'd love to hear it, but at best it would be a general starting point, I think.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:26 am

Tim wrote: Material like heavy biax takes substantial resin to wet out, even if that much resin isn't strictly needed in the laminate; in other words, it takes more to get it wet than it takes to truly wet it out. (Does that make sense?)

Absolutely. That's why I prefer to wet-out heavy stuff like this in a dedicated (albeit temporary, cobbled-together, and job-specific) wet-out box. Let the pieces soak in a nice pool of resin, help it along with a nudge here and there, then squeege the excess off on the way out of the box and leave it behind for the next batch, etc. in a seemingly endless cycle.

Like cooking eggplant parmigiana. :)

For the last piece I was mopping every last little drop of resin left in the wet-out box, because it was all I had left! In the end, I think I could've done with another twelve ounces or so. There are two spots that are not as bulletproof as I'd like, but these can be covered on installation, I think, with some creative tabbing.

Yeah, a vacuum bag system would've been handy!

Post by **dasein668** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:42 am

Figment wrote: Yeah, a vacuum bag system would've been handy!

I think it's time for you to put one together, Mike. You're building a lot of custom glass pieces this winter.

Then with all your experience, we can just come to you for our custom glass piece requirements!

Post by **Tim** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:48 pm

So, it's been over a month. Has there been any more progress on these projects?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:08 pm

yes, thank you for the gentle reminder of the ticking clock. ;)

Progress? No not really. This past month has wasted away due to family commitments or to sub-epoxy temperatures, depending on the day in question.

The gutters are off the molds, waiting to be trimmed and installed. One of the gutters put up a wicked fight and I had to destroy part of the mold to get it to release. I think I was a bit too agressive when buffing the mold wax. The end product is unaffected, but I hope I don't botch the install because repairing that mold for another layup will be tedious.

Speaking of trimming: How much of an inward flange should I leave for the hatch to seal/bear onto? 3/4"?

I still need to lay up a new face-piece for the starboard side. That's my major holdup right now. I could heat the cockpit well (and long) enough to install these things, but it's just been too cold to reliably heat the open area of the shed at the bench.

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:21 am

Speaking of trimming: How much of an inward flange should I leave for the hatch to seal/bear onto? 3/4"?

I'm in Denver tonight, but I'm pretty sure that mine are right at 3/4" wide. I built up more laminations at the corners and at the middle of the long sections so that the flange has some very strong points to take the various stresses from the lids. Again, they are pretty strong, though the gutters seemed less so when they came off the molds. Once tied together, they get pretty solid.

Joe

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:17 pm

quick progress report. No pics. Digicam walked away again.

As reported elsewhere, when I went to install the gutter for the port side locker I discovered that I had I built it backward. Much foul language, but minimal throwing of tools.
Not such a tragedy, I knocked together a new mold in about an hour. In my zeal to make up for lost progress, I just assumed that I'd made the starboard side backward as well, but halfway through rebuilding that mold (far more complex due to the icebox) I realized that sheer dumb luck had fallen in my favor on that score, and the new mold was unnecessary.

I jumped on the warm weather yesterday and laid up the new piece. This weekend is supposed to be colder again, but the clock is ticking so I may devise some creative heating systems to enable progress to continue.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:20 am

Figment wrote:...minimal throwing of tools.

People who work in plastic buildings shouldn't throw tools.

At least not more than once or twice. Few things improve the mood better than realizing the thing you just threw in a fury created lots of collateral damage to your building, or something else.

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:17 am

That has to be and easy thing to do on molds with complex shapes. All these big jobs seem to have some bumps in road.

Joe

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:13 am

Even plastic tools? spreaders and such?

Joe, that was the real twist of the knife, the piece I screwed up was the SIMPLEST piece of all! The only way to screw it up was to reverse the long and short legs, and that's what I managed to do.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:05 am

Icebox: insulated, everything strapped-down until the epoxy cures.

And rough-trimmed, with a few quick shots of Great Stuff at the gaps.

A quick layer of glass for abuse-resistance, and she'll be ready to mate with the gutter section. Assuming, of course, that the plug comes out without too much of a destructive struggle.

Joe, what was the installation sequence with your gutters and fascia pieces? Did you mate the gutter and fascia together, and then install the whole unit to the boat? did you install the fascia to the boat first, and then bring the gutter in afterward?

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:33 pm

Joe, what was the installation sequence with your gutters and fascia pieces? Did you mate the gutter and fascia together, and then install the whole unit to the boat? did you install the fascia to the boat first, and then bring the gutter in afterward?

Sorry for the slow response. I haven't been on the site in a couple of days.

I glued them to the boat in stages. As I recall, I enclosed the openings of the old lockers first. The facia pieces were glued to the backs of these new panels next. The top of the the new panels were then ground down flush with the bottom ledge of the facia. I made the gutters intentionally long and ground them down to fit the top openings. They were the last to be glued in.

The gutters were a bit of a challenge to glue in (again due to the curvature of the seats). I clamped them firmly along the coaming edge, as well as the inboard edge were the joined the facia pieces. I used a plastic trowell to stuff really thick epoxy into the gap between the flat section of the gutter lips and the curved section of the seats. Once cured, the seats retained the approximate original curvature. I bet none of this makes sense, does it?

After the thickend epoxy cured on the glue joints, I cut the openings for the gutter fronts were they exit into the cockpit. First with a saber saw, then refined them with a Dremmel using one of those little sanding drum attachments that are around 3/4" or so. Afterwards, I tabbed everthing together everywhere. I really went to town on the tabbing and probably went way overboard with the amount of material applied, but it did add some stiffness to the structure.

I can just imagine those cold beverages waiting in the cockpit ice box this summer! Very cool!

Joe

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:22 am

(don't apologize for the "slow" response! It's nice that someone around here has a life!)

Thanks for the process narrative. That's roughly what I'd imagined, but of course I'm comforted to hear that I'm not way off base.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:03 pm

Starboard side tacked-in-place.
That vaguely blue thing in the shadows is the icebox, friction-fit in place for the moment. It will be an annoying obstruction when I go to tape the gutter in place, but I've "maximized" its capacity so much that installation after the fact is not possible.

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:55 pm

Looks awesome!!! Have you got a start on the lids yet? Seems like you are not that far from the finish line.

Joe

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:57 pm

A start on the lids? um, no. Haven't touched them since the day of the Big Cut. Elaborate on this when you have a moment, please.

My wonderfully naive concept of the lids was simply to make minor modifications necessary to mount the hinges and get them to close evenly. Of course nothing is ever as simple as it sounds, but have I overlooked something significant?

Post by **Tim** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:11 am

Looks good, Mike! Keep those progress photos coming. I'm looking forward to seeing this all come together.

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:45 am

My lids were sort of flimsy as they came off. I cut off those plywood stiffeners and added 1/2 inch plywood core under, which I sheathed with 10 oz. cloth. I made a series of table saw cuts down the length of the plywood about 2/3 thickness of the material. The plywood was clamped around a bending jig, and the saw cuts were filled with thickened epoxy. Again, I was trying to duplicate the original camber of the seats. I counted on some spring back after they came off the bending jig, but there was very little. So, the lockers have a bit more curve than the surrounding seat structure.

In addition, I inlaid some aluminum strips around the perimeter of the lids above the gutters to discourage water from running along the bottom into the locker. If I did it again, I'd extend the lips all the way around the perimeter of the lids, like modern production boats are done. I may modify mine down the road like this.

I also added a couple of layers of 17 oz. biax to the lid lips

Yours are no doubt built differently than mine, so pardon my assumption that something other than your plan is warranted. I sure don't have a clue on how this stuff should be done. None of this engineering bears any resemblance to aeronautical applications.

Joe

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:55 am

Right, I'd forgotten that you re-reinforced your lids. I really doubt that I'll have to do that. Mine are quite stout as they are. If anything I'm a bit worried that they may be too heavy.

The perimeter lip is an interesting idea. I hadn't considered that at all.

Hey man, you have more of a clue than I do! You've probably saved me a couple of WEEKS of headscratching along the course of this project.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:06 pm

Project-specific update.

The gutters work quite well. Even with the lids just resting atop the flanges, today's post-launch scrubdown showed no water via the main lids and only 1/4 cup or so into the icebox. I was REALLY putting the hose to it, water was gushing from those outlets and landing 6" into the cockpit.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:32 am

I have a feeling I might have missed this along the way somewhere, but what brand, size, and capacity fuel tank did you end up with? I remember you debating a few choices. Looks like a nice fit that won't take up too much of the useful part of the cockpit locker.

The daysailing icebox looks nifty.

Rachel

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:20 am

Tempo TP12S 12gal. It only consumes the forward 12" of the locker, but it's a squeaker of a fit. Only by dumb blind luck does the gutter happen to land between the fill neck and the vent without fouling either.

Post by **Tim** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:12 am

Figment wrote: Only by dumb blind luck does the gutter happen to land between the fill neck and the vent without fouling either.

I'd rather be lucky than good!

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:03 pm

Mike,

Schweeeeet!!!

I think I'm going to cut mine out tomorrow and duplicate the ice box configuration!!

Just kidding....

Thats a very coooool design though. I look forward to seeing them painted. Your're using stainless piano hinges?

Joe

Post by **dasein668** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:39 pm

I'm glad to see that you have a nice hoppy beer modeled in the box. I know who's boat I'm going to go sailing on!

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:49 pm

and that's just the empty bottle for scale. I think I'll do Smuttynose for the first charging of the box. (cart well ahead of the horse)

I think I'm going to do brass piano hinges. They may turn to dust quite promptly, and if so I'll swap for stainless, but my hope is that brass will suffice because the load is borne by the gutter flanges.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:43 pm

No hinges yet, but I have the fit of the lids tuned up pretty well.

Pic of the rainy day.

I do love standing in the companionway in a rainstorm.

Post by **Tim** » Thu May 17, 2007 6:37 am

Where did you put your engine controls, Mike? (throttle)

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu May 17, 2007 9:03 am

Temporarily mounted just inside the companionway.

It's a mildly inconvenient spot when docking, but only because a quick shutdown is necessary due to the A4's lack of a positive neutral.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:38 am

How are those lids coming?... (2.5 years later)

hehe

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:42 am

I remember seeing where someone had run metal rods from the cabin rear bulkhead along the bottom of the seats through holes drilled in the gutters (way up high along the very bottom of the seating surface) and a tab that had been added on the bottom of the hatch,

By withdrawing the rod slightly the hatch was unlocked. When you locked up you pushed the rod back in it intercepted the hatch and held it closed.

No latches or padlocks needed.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:58 am

One of my Montgomerys had a similar system to the rods, only with internal lines running to a clam cleat inside the cabin. It always made me feel like I had to decide between "locked" and fairly inaccessible (while sailing) or open and no way to lock quickly when necessary.

Not saying it might not be a good choice; just mentioning out how it worked out for me.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:15 pm

Rachel wrote: It always made me feel like I had to decide between "locked" and fairly inaccessible (while sailing) or open and no way to lock quickly when necessary.

Is that bad? The only time I can think of when being latched while sailing is necessary or at least desirable is in a good blow, for safety reasons. And in this case you usually have some warning. Am I missing something that should concern me?

If the rods can be installed in such a manner that they are convenient and accessible in the cabin, then I like this method. Not having latches or hasps in the cockpit is kind of nice.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:20 pm

I don't think it's inherently bad, no. I guess it just depends on how one uses one's cockpit lockers. I found that I would have preferred an easily accessible latch (from normal sailing position in the cockpit), so I just wanted to convey my experience and opinion, as it's one of those things one might not think of until one installed it and went out sailing.

Rachel

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:27 pm

Some people don't feel the need for hinges on their cockpit locker lids; let alone locking hasps ;-)

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:46 pm

Oh, your cockpit lockers have lids...?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:24 pm

2.5 years later: No hasps, no hinges, no insulation on the underside of the icebox lid, and really no complaints on any of the three.

The lockers are rarely opened while sailing. Only when a foresail change is required.
The icebox lid is of inconsequential size.
The gutters could use a scrub, though.

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Cockpit lockers and fuel tank while I'm in there.

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