Triton #680 deck work

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:09 am

Looking more closely at your mast step now, it's not the same as mine. Mine is cast aluminum. Is yours wood?

For one reason or another I've repainted my mast step every couple of years. I wouldn't want to have to break a paint joint and potentially compromise the deck paint to remove it or rebed it.

A favorite joke:
Q. When does aluminum start to corrode?
A. As soon as you paint it!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:35 am

Yeah, my mast step is an epoxy saturated mahogony plywood contraption. I am expecting the paint to stick to it just as well as the rest of the deck. It is removable but I just can't see any reason to remove it. I probably should have just set it in a bed of epoxy and made it permanent.

Then again...

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:24 am

bcooke wrote:Yeah, my mast step is an epoxy saturated mahogony plywood contraption. I am expecting the paint to stick to it just as well as the rest of the deck. It is removable but I just can't see any reason to remove it. I probably should have just set it in a bed of epoxy and made it permanent.

Then again...

-Britton

I have the same. I pulled it off for painting, but I don't see a pressing reason to do so. I definitely would NOT make it permanant, however. Plywood and rot potential, epoxy soaked or no, after all...

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:11 pm

I knew I had a good reason at the time :-)

Post by **Tim** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:15 am

Rachel wrote: And I'm not going to say a word about "Style" (the boat to starboard of yours).

Funny...my first thought was also how inaptly named that particular boat was!

Looks good, Britton. I hope you get a weather window soon.

I see no reason not to just paint over and around your mast step in your particular case. Those laminated ones as seen on most of the mid-and later model Tritons are either good as is for another 40 years, or junk right now; there seems to be no in-between. Since yours is good, and you've already addressed the deck beneath and rebedded, you won't have a need to touch it again for a very long time.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:20 pm

Schedule and weather didn't come together this week. Thur/Fri were pretty torturous with gorgeous weather Next week looks like a Maybe.

I contented myself with hull work. A thorough washing, acetone wipe, and awl-prep-plus wipe really made the hull look better (probably only to my eyes.) Lowering the waterline to where it should be really seemed to have a positive effect too (also probably to my own eyes.)

I ground out the battle scars and filled with fairing filler. I also filled in some holes around the stern. Curious, we all hear about how over-built the old boats are; while grinding out the battle scars I kept waiting to see good solid laminate. It wasn't going to happen. The deeper I ground, the more I just keep finding hull that looks like swiss cheese inside. Well, not really swiss cheese but the laminate is riddled with small holes/voids/dry bits/etc. With so much hull thickness I am not worried but there might be a good reason they built the hulls so thick. I really wish I had a camera while I was grinding...

Note, I have a lot more sanding to do on the hull. I just wanted to hit the big stuff before I went over most of the hull with 60/80 grit. A close examination shows lots of random gelcoat cracks that will have to be dealt with.

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:35 pm

Are you considering removing the stemstrap?

I took it off for my deckwork, and I wished I'd taken it off the following year for the hull paint. One less fussy bit to work around.
I may even have found a source for new screws.

What's with the duct tape?

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:42 pm

I didn't have the heart to take off the stem strap.

It would be easier than painting around it but I know something would break in the removal and I would have an additional project to deal wth.

The duct tape is just holding some wax paper against the hull so the thickened epoxy didn't sag down and make a mess. Well,... a bigger mess.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:28 pm

Progress is progress!

Looking good.

Jamestown has 3/8" flathead machine screws in 6" and 8" lengths; I think that's where I got the new bolts for my stem casting way back when. They are very expensive, but it's good to know they're available if need be.

Mike: what's your source?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:32 pm

ah, more fun with Triton inconsistencies!!!

The 3/8" bolts carried by Jamestown don't have the necessary (7/8" I think) heads required to fit my stemstrap. Are later castings cut for normal-size heads? Also, I don't think that 8" is enough for that long bolt that reaches all the way through to the deck side.

I can't remember the source off the top of my head, but I have it stashed away somewhere. They had a screw lathe going on display at the woodenboat show in Mystic this year, can cut anything within reason. So can any machine shop, of course, but I don't want to know the cost of four bits of metal from a machine shop around here.

rshowarth · Post by **rshowarth** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:25 pm

I really wish I had a camera while I was grinding...

So do we all. I would like the video of the

I ground out the battle scars and filled with fairing filler.

But what is there looks great.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:43 pm

I paid $8 a piece for four bronze bolts I wound up not using...

The heads look pretty big for a 3/8" bolt but I don't know what I have under there (which is partly why I am afraid to touch it). Bolts going up to the deck?! I think mine goes into a sort of false stem that acts as just a backing block for the pointy end of the boat. I haven't been up to that end of the boat in a while though.

My problem with taking pictures is that the only digital camera I have is a Canon SLR and I don't like leaving it in the toolbox for those just-in-case photos. I treat the camera badly enough as it is. And videos? Not until I have purchased all the boat treats I want first.

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:15 pm

(photo robbed from the Kaholee project because I couldn't find a decent one of my own)

See that nut at the aft end of the stem fitting?
That's the second of the four stemstrap bolts. Well the top one is just a monster woodscrew, but you know what I mean.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:40 pm

Aha!

I still don't think I want to pull it off this year...

maybe.

Post by **Tim** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:04 am

The stem is easy to tape around if you don't care to remove it.

Post by **Tim** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:09 am

Figment wrote:The 3/8" bolts carried by Jamestown don't have the necessary (7/8" I think) heads required to fit my stemstrap. Are later castings cut for normal-size heads?

It would seem so.

Post by **dasein668** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:38 pm

How 'bout some primer pics, bub?

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:22 am

I knew you couldn't keep a secret for long...

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:12 pm

It might be awhile.

I was near the limits of minimum cure temps (55 deg F.) and minimum dewpoint spread (3 deg F). Between these two and the unexpected downpour I think I lost it.

I only started sanding on it later in the day but it appears that a good part of the high build application has failed and will have to be ground off and re-coated. Compounding matters was the fact that I had to delay sanding for four days so what did set up correctly is pretty hard now.

Given my ever-shrinking weather window and this little learning experience, I may call it quits until Spring.

It looked nice when it was all one color though.

-Britton

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:27 pm

Darn, Britton, that's a drag. Empathy points abound. It's going to look great when you do finish, though!

Rachel

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:39 pm

bcooke wrote:I knew you couldn't keep a secret for long...

It was a whole week. Jeez, whaddya want from a guy?

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:41 pm

Ugh, that stinks. Sorry man! Hopefully a nice October sail with Beers and Cheesey Comestibles will brighten your disposition.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:58 pm

"failed" in what way? Adhesion?

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:45 pm

Hopefully a nice October sail with Beers and Cheesey Comestibles will brighten your disposition.

Definitely. I am looking forward to it. My second sail of the season.

Hmmm..... Failed. How do I describe it. Sort of a mixed variety of sorts.

First. I noticed on the cabin top that the high build primer had lifted and cracked but only on the upper doghouse. Using a scraper the paint lifted off cleanly.

Second. In a couple of places on the upper doghouse, after sanding nearly all the way through, it almost looked like the gel-coat - the soft, thick, non-skid portion -itself had bubbled up slightly. Sort of like paint under a heat gun, but only a little bit.

Third. In a couple of spots it was really weird. The sander would really bog down (I was working with 120 grit) and yet I wasn't applying much pressure and the disc wasn't clogging up. Almost like the primer was still sticky but it felt dry to the touch. Weird.

The primer itself didn't approach anything like self-leveling but I wasn't surprised at that. I had to nearly grind all the way through it to get a level smooth surface. Occasionally, I would burn through those smooth surfaces and the edges would lift cleanly. I kept sanding away until the edges were well feathered and obviously well adhered. (With the cooler temperatures I should have used a thinner but I didn't have any on hand and figured no amount of thinning was going to make this mud paint well so there was no point in trying. I will thin next time.)

I first tried sanding with 120 grit on the DA sander but the sander was chattering a lot. I tried a heavier grit but the same thing was happening. So I switched to the palm sander (120, then 80) which worked smoothly except it was taking forever. I decided I would rather lean down and take too much paint off rather than spend a week sanding so I went back to the DA- which did in fact take most of the primer off. Now I am back to a multi-colored deck.

If the point of the high build is to simply fill the pinholes then I am okay. The vast majority of pinholes are filled. If I am also supposed to have a solid non-transparent layer of high build primer over everything then I am not okay. I may go straight to 545 but I really want to investigate more of the deck first.

I am not finished yet. I did some work on the aft deck which seemed marginal. I went through in spots but it is mostly decent. The cabin top however is almost devoid of primer which is where I stopped for the evening. Funnily enough both surfaces were painted at roughly the same time. A half day of sanding tomorrow will tell me a lot more.

There are so many variables I am not sure which ones are acting up here. Certainly the fact that I was applying the primer right at the edge of its limits didn't help much. At worst, I may also have some foreign material (i.e. silicone) ground into the surfaces by mistake. I did the detailed cleaning and solvent wash before sanding but I might have missed something. My boat was loaded with silicone before I started.

I will know a lot more tomorrow but today I am just going to wallow in my dissapointment for a bit. I definitely have a better idea of the limits of the material and won't be pushing my luck so hard next time.

Like I said, for a few days, seeing a single solid color on the deck was great. Good things are coming. I just need a few more learning experiences first.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:43 am

First off, you have my heartfelt condolences. There's nothing worse than taking such major steps backward. But I think you're smart to cut your losses and wait for more clement weather. Even on good days, there just aren't enough warm sunlight hours to allow paints and varnishes to cure appropriately at this time of year up here.

bcooke wrote:I should have used a thinner...

Am I to understand that you applied this without using any reducer? Reducer in these products isn't an optional thing...it's required. At a minimum, at any temperature, you need the minimum percentage indicated in the directions. Reducer is an important part of the paint system and cannot be left out.

bcooke wrote:I decided I would rather lean down and take too much paint off rather than spend a week sanding so I went back to the DA- which did in fact take most of the primer off.

Sounds like that may have been the best choice, given the way your primer cured (or didn't cure). Disappointing, but a lot less so than having your shiny topcoats fail in the future because of bad primer coat.

bcooke wrote:...unexpected downpour...

That certainly couldn't have helped things! Fall weather is so unpredictable.

bcooke wrote:At worst, I may also have some foreign material (i.e. silicone) ground into the surfaces by mistake...My boat was loaded with silicone before I started.

Silicone contamination is generally easily recognizable and forms "fish eyes"--circular areas where the paint basically pulls away from itself over the area of contamination. While this may be part of your problem, it doesn't really sound like it's the cause from your description of the way the paint is acting.

Sounds like you have a good attitude about the setback, so just press on with other parts of the project and you'll be fine.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:57 am

If I may borrow.... "ouch, baby. very ouch."

How many coats did you apply?

Chin up, this is all part of the fun, right?
The triton is juuuust enough boat for you to become pretty good at painting, juuuuust about the time you finish painting it.

keelbolts · Post by **keelbolts** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:44 am

Sorry to hear about your uncooperative primer. I had a similar problem recently and hated life for about a day. I don't think it's just me, but, while I love a beautiful paint job, I don't enjoy painting and sanding enough to do it for no good reason. Whenever I feel unhappy with my boat progress I think of Jeff & Christine, friends of mine who cold-molded a 50-something foot schooner and 'glassed it. They wanted a wood deck, but they didn't want to penetrate the fiberglass on the deck so they glued ipe to the deck w/ 5200. This involved a good deal of wood, 5200, spacers, and weight (to hold down the ipe while the 5200 set). They did the deck and the cabin tops. 50 feet by about 14 feet and when they removed the weights the wood almost immediately curled, cupped, and did other ugly things from one end to the other. You can't imagine it any worse than it was. My wife would have had to put me on a suicide watch. Jeff & Christine took it pretty well, cleaned and painted the deck, and ended up sailing away to the islands. Things could be worse & you'll win in the end. I hope that helps you just a little as it does me when things aren't working for me the way they always seem to work for Tim.

Summersdawn · Post by **Summersdawn** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:27 pm

I feel for you Britton. I had an unexpected rain shower on my freshly primed deck last year. I knocked the loose stuff off, sanded it well, and kept going. I now have a handful of spots were the primer has peeled up off the deck.

You are doing the right thing by taking the majority of the primer off. It is easier to sand and re-prime now, than it will be later.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:08 pm

I think I really should post my screw-ups more often. I haven't felt this many warm thoughts in a long time. Thank you all.

I am pretty much over it now.

Am I to understand that you applied this without using any reducer?

Now you tell me :-)

I had heard the stuff goes on like mud and I wanted a thick application so it seemed like the right thing to do at the time. A chemist/boat carpenter friend and part time paint expert already set me straight. Next time reduce.

No fisheyes so no silicone contamination. At least that is a load off my mind.

I was too cavalier. I will admit it now. I pushed too hard. It won't happen again.

...now have a handful of spots were the primer has peeled up off the deck.

I am really sorry to hear that but I really appreciate it. It will make tomorrow's work much easier to digest knowing for certain I am doing the right thing.

Yesterday I sanded off a good part of what was on the cabin top. The rest looked pretty secure. When I showed up this morning a few more blisters appeared. That did it. I am definitely taking every bit of the stuff back off. I just wish I could sand decks all day without my back cramping up and causing me to crawl around on all fours. It is going to take a few days to get the job done a few hours at a time.

How many coats did you apply?

One coat over everything. Three coats over the cockpit and cabin sides where I had hoped to see acres of smooth brilliant white.

Next time I might just forego anything that will have non-skid over it. All this sanding is making everything pretty smooth and further fairing under the non-skid is probably not necessary.

Which leads me to a question. If I am going with an Interlux product for the non-skid, wouldn't I rather put down Interlux primer there? Why even bother using an Awl-Grip primer in parts that won't see Awl-Grip paint? Everybody I know that does an Awl-grip (or the like) job on the decks seems to cover the entire deck surface with the two-part primer.
On another good note, the primer sanded off smooth and I found very few areas that weren't really fair already. All this sanding must be good for something.

Thanks again for the good thoughts.

-Britton

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:45 pm

Rachel wrote:So, what's the word on topsides color?
...

Me wrote:Green

I take it back. I am going with the Other option...

Post by **dasein668** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:57 pm

bcooke wrote:
Rachel wrote:So, what's the word on topsides color?
...

Me wrote:Green
I take it back. I am going with the Other option...

You tease! (Thank goodness that I know what other is!)

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:35 pm

Cool: The "other" color

Not so cool: Having to wait until next year to see it on your Triton

<grin>

R.

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:47 pm

Am I getting warmer?

Post by **Tim** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:39 am

bcooke wrote:
Am I to understand that you applied this without using any reducer?
Now you tell me :-)

Now, now...how many times have I emphasized the need to read and follow product directions?

bcooke wrote:Which leads me to a question. If I am going with an Interlux product for the non-skid, wouldn't I rather put down Interlux primer there? Why even bother using an Awl-Grip primer in parts that won't see Awl-Grip paint? Everybody I know that does an Awl-grip (or the like) job on the decks seems to cover the entire deck surface with the two-part primer.

Mostly because it's an easy way to cover the entire deck with an outstanding primer system, and because it avoids a need to mask the patterns early in the process, and possibly multiple times (particularly outdoors, where tape probably wouldn't last through the whole process). You certainly could go the other route if you prefer, since you don't need Awlgrip primer beneath non-Awlgrip paint products.

Epoxy primer makes a good substrate for any paint of equal or lesser quality, so it's an excellent choice regardless. And you tend to have more than enough on hand anyway, avoiding the need for yet another can of paint later.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:40 am

bcooke wrote:I just wish I could sand decks all day...

Staging.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:01 am

Tim M. wrote:Am I getting warmer?

Compared to the current color I would have to say... yes.

Not quite so flamboyant though. Striking, but in a subtle way <smile>

Tim L. wrote:Staging.

I know, I know...

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:00 am

Tim wrote:Now, now...how many times have I emphasized the need to read and follow product directions?

Have we actually established that Britton can read? ;-P

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:14 am

Yeah, I can't read so don't worry about me finding out what you really think of me.

Do you ever get the feeling the boat Gods don't like you?

I found out why my Porter Cable 7335 was chattering a bit on occasion. It wasn't the paper gripping the material funny.

The bearing blew out. It is now only a SA sander and not very effective at that.

Replacement cost for the bearing is $35 and 1-2 weeks delivery.

I think I am going to buy a new sander today.

I worked it pretty hard these past four years but I expected to get a little more life out of it. One complete boat project at least.

Guess I won't be sanding this morning either.

-Britton

keelbolts · Post by **keelbolts** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:42 pm

Maybe it's God's way of telling you to take a break...

...maybe it's just time to buy a new sander. Sometimes it's hard to tell.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:57 pm

hehe.

Capn_Tom · Post by **Capn_Tom** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:13 pm

If you are using Iterdeck it doesn't require a primer If you need the primer for fairing purposes Interlux doesn't have a true high build primer but you could use Interprotect due to it's quick overcoat time. Epoxy primekote their 2 part primer is n't much thicker than 2 part poly but it does sand well.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:51 pm

I'm sorry, Britton, but I have to give away your new color scheme.

hehe...subtle...:-p

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:56 pm

Tony wrote:I'm sorry, Britton, but I have to give away your new color scheme.

hehe...subtle...:-p

I actually like the idea, but the execution of the eye of infinity "logo" leaves something to be deisred.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:22 pm

I'm already far too obsessed with bottom growth.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:23 pm

That's right. I said it. Go ahead.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:41 pm

<snort>

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:44 am

You people are bringing my thread down.

Bottom growth indeed.

That is actually a fantastic looking hull under those colors and the more I look at it the less I am put off by the bold colors. In my case I am thinking a bit more subtle still. Single color. Not immediately obvious perhaps. Quite rare. People will say "nice color,why don't more people use it?..."

At least I hope that is the reaction. I am going color shopping next week to get some more specifics. It will definitely be a custom mix.

-Britton

keelbolts · Post by **keelbolts** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:47 am

I think in terms of repainting my topsides each year, so a graphic scheme like that one looks like waaay too much work. It's interesting though. Don't you get just a tiny bit bored with the marinas full of white and blue boats? ... and this coming from a guy who only has white rope on his boat. Not sold on the graphics, but love the boat.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue May 13, 2008 6:49 pm

Sand, sand, sand...

And prime again...

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Tue May 13, 2008 7:25 pm

Looking good!

I love the smooth lines of that lazarette, no humps bumps or other compound curves with no purpose! Did you modify her back there, or is that factory?

Zach