Pipedreaming

penthink · Post by **penthink** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:20 am

Hey folks,

I was speaking with a boatbuilder friend last night about the fact that I have a strange obsession with diesel-powered launches, such as one (Tim, you will have a great familiarity with this one) of the ones they use down at Handy Boat. Please do not ask me to rationalize this obsession. I can't. I am an avid saltwater fly-fisherman, and when I am not sailing, I am usually trying to pick up stripers. So I guess my excuse could be that I could use one of these to fish from.

Anyhoo, my friend is extremely talented, and expressed a willingness to help me build a scaled-down model in the back corner of his shop, and of course I want to build it out of wood.

Here is my question: Anyone else got this bug? Can you point out any great designs? I have looked at a couple of "Handy Billys," but these aren't exactly what I am thinking of. If anyone has a pretty little launch in mind and wants to provide me a link, that would be great.

thanks,
Mike

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:02 am

I'm a sponge for boat designs.

What is it about the handy billy that doesn't light your fire? Want something a little more curvaceous?

penthink · Post by **penthink** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:23 am

I have no idea. It's a great design, no doubt. And if I was tooling around Casco Bay in one, I certainly would not feel ashamed. Hell, I've been fishing out of the ugliest, cheesiest no-name fiberglass *%#@box ever seen. People look at it and break out in full guffaws. No kidding.

But I just love this stupid launch at one of the local marinas, it is big and dumb with a super-high bow and the steering station is to port and way forward, and of course is one of those big handle jobs, no wheel. And it sort of put-put-puts its way around the mooring field, and I am in love.

But if you have a certain design that you love, I would like to see it, if you have a link. My e-mail is down til at least noon, so I am wasting the morning surfing around and searching for the "perfect" design.

thanks,
m

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:43 am

oh, you mean a LAUNCH... as in "get on channel 68 and call the launch to come and fetch us off the mooring".

Big tubby thing with a tall vertical stem... basically a tugboat hullform without the house on top.... two-cylinder diesel thumping away at about 700 rpm down in the belly...

That's a horse of a different color. I think maybe Paul Gartside has something you might like. Lemme poke around a bit.

(I love this stuff)

penthink · Post by **penthink** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:49 am

Exactly!!! I was in Hell's Gates the other day - which is this place where five Maine rivers converge. Basically, it's a giant horrible whirlpool that could knock a battleship around, and here are these two old timers fishing out of one, without the least concern as to their safety. My father referred to the motor as a "hit or miss," whatever that means. But it definitely had the beautiful sound of a '30s tractor engine. Nice, safe, slow boat. Seems like a perfect combination to me.

Anyway, I have found two designs that I like quite a bit. One is called the "Allen Yawl Boat," and the other is called the "Zimmer Diesel Launch," although neither is exactly what I want. I can't wait to see what you recommend.

penthink · Post by **penthink** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:51 am

The link to the "Allen Yawl Boat."

http://www.cppyacht.com/power.html

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:05 pm

I want that tiller!!

Yeah, Gartside had a few things that might tickle your imagination... www.gartsideboats.com Check out the 16' inboard work boat. The steam boats are pretty cool too, though perhaps they're a bit too fanciful for your taste.

I've always been a fan of that Zimmer launch. There's just something about the novelty of imagining oneself at the helm, with the stem two feet ahead of you and TWENTY feet of boat behind you.... A nautical counterpart to those old Dodge cabover pickup trucks from the 60's.

If you care to lean more toward the center-console-on-a-tugboat-hull, look at Sam Devlin's Godzilli tugs. They're outboard, and you'd need to squint your eyes and imagine them without the tugboat house, but I love them. They all have that nice round stern, and I'm just a sucker for a boat with a nice ass! I think Devlin is www.devlindesigns.com, but google always turns him up if not.

This is great. I haven't looked at these designs in a while. I think I have more at home.

Post by **Tim** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:57 pm

I was also going to mention the Devlin Godzilla. I love that!

But then, Mike (penthink), you haven't really mentioned your size range. The Handy's launches are about 23-24'.

penthinkfromhome · Post by **penthinkfromhome** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:45 pm

Well, I want something that can be trailered and dropped in reasonably easily. I live about four seconds from the public launch ramp, so it makes no sense for me to pay for two slips (as if wifey would allow such a thing).

I am thinking 16-18 foot. The hull on the that Godzilla is exactly it. Perfect. But when I looked on the website of a boat much like this, the guy was talking 2500 hours construction time! The average individual who works 40 hours a week only works 2000 in a year! Soooo....

That might not have been such a great idea. But yeah, those launches at Handy are my dream. And I have never had anyone piloting who could tell me a thing about them. I think, though I could be wrong, that I remember someone once telling me that one of the two was made by Hinckley. Am I crazy?

Post by **dasein668** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:53 pm

I didn't think the Handys launches were Hinckleys... I know the PYC launches are. Tim?

Post by **Tim** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:13 pm

No, the Handy launches are not Hinckley. Dana Bowker (aka PYC#2) next door at PYC, is a Hinckley, though.

The other PYC launch, William Waldron (aka PYC#1) most assuredly is not a Hinckley--it's actually a 1969 Pacemaker. I don't know if the launch guys have any fun there anymore or not, but years ago when I worked there driving launches we dubbed it the "Sea Pig" for its charming handling characteristics and uninspired (to put it mildly) design.

But I digress.

The Handy launches, Margret S and Harold S, are, as you know, identical, hull-wise. I have seen the same designs used elsewhere for launches, so they are not unique. If you're really dying to find out who their builder/designer was, why not call up Handy's and ask? Talk to Jay or Bob or Merle; the launch drivers never know anything. The launches are inspected vessels, and all this information is surely at hand. Perhaps then it might lead you down the road to a set of plans (definitely a long shot), or some other information that would be helpful.

penthinkfromhome · Post by **penthinkfromhome** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:37 pm

Ah yes. Well, I figured you would know. And you're right. I swear, it almost seems as though it's an affront to ask those guys what the origins of those two launches are. But I guess not everyone is a complete blithering boat geek like me. I love 'em all and want to know the story behind every one of 'em, too.

That's a great suggestion Tim. Although I sooner think I will buy plans for something already designed rather than go through all the pain and suffering of lofting (if that is the right term?). I really do like the Godzilli a lot. But I gotta figure, if that guy is selling them finished without an engine for $20k, then that is more than I want to bite off at the moment, considering that I was just insulating my garage and managed to drive a staple through my index finger with my slam stapler. I'm not sure I'm qualified to run a jointer or a shaper if I can't even work a stapler. Ho hum.

This is such a horrible addiction. I can't stand it. I think I'm going to put together a local chapter of WA. (watercraftaholics anonymous). Any takers?

Post by **Tim** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:00 pm

Don't forget that that 20K figure accounts not only for the materials, but also for a stiff labor charge and surely an allowance for pure profit on top of all that. I have trouble believing it should cost anywhere near as much as that to build--it's a simple 16' plywood boat. Not as simple as some, of course, but still.

Same goes for that 2500-hour labor estimate: that seems really long to me, given the small size and simplicity of the boat. I know boats take a long time to build, but that just seems out of whack somehow. At least for the 16-footer. You'd have to make some changes to accommodate a small diesel instead of the outboard on the Godzilli, but I don't think it would be a huge deal at all.

Before we found our Lyman, I considered building the Godzilli, or one of its slightly larger sisterships. That's not to say I never will, but it's certainly on the back burner now.

This is such a horrible addiction. I can't stand it. I think I'm going to put together a local chapter of WA. (watercraftaholics anonymous). Any takers?

We can turn my barn into the local headquarters. Lord knows I'm in the running for president of this new society! At least the boats you're trying to collect are smaller and self-trailerable. Me--I have to be into heavy cruising sailboats and the like. Groan.

penthinkfromhome · Post by **penthinkfromhome** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:05 pm

Well, you are partly right, Tim. I would be hard pressed to convince the better half that the 32 feet of fiberglass sitting beside my garage right now is a "small" boat. But I digress.

I have an idea Tim. How about you build me the Godzilli, and I won't charge you for the experience you gained in building it! Isn't that how these boat building schools work? You pay $800 to go to boat building school for three days, and then they sell your work to some wealthy New Yorker as a coffee table? At least if you built the Godzilli, you could see it in the water from time to time. I think it sounds like a helluvan idea!

Post by **Tim** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:36 pm

OK, right you are about the 32. But at least you have only one big boat, and have much smaller "extra" boats to fill out your collection!

Tell you what: for you, my friend, I'll build a Godzilli for $16,000. Why, that's a 20% discount of your Internet price, courtesy of my new business, Bargains-R-US Marine. Or should it be Wal-Boat?

hehe...

penthinkfromhome · Post by **penthinkfromhome** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:42 pm

At one time, my boat inventory consisted of:

Cheoy Lee Bermuda Ketch
16' Owens Mahogany Runabout
Cape Dory 10 Sailing Dinghy
16' Fiberglass Center Console (brand unknown, or at least unadmitted)
9' Plywood Pram
16' Old Town Canoe
18' Strip-built Maine Guide Canoe
14' Plastic Kayak
8' Zodiac

I was single for a long time, and boats took the place of dating. Of course, boats are certainly not my priority now (wink, wink, nod, nod), and mumma has made me pare down my collection. But I think you're right Tim, I need one more big boat. How about that 23 footer, the tug? I think that would really fulfill all of my needs.

Final offer: You build it, I will mow your lawn from here to eternity, and as a final incentive, I will call it something goofy (in order to REALLY fit in with the stinkpotters), like "Tim's Whim," or "A Lackey of Judgment." Do we have a deal?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:47 pm

...Bargains-R-US Marine...

further inroads into an insidious plot to take over the world..

penthinkfromhome · Post by **penthinkfromhome** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:48 pm

By the way, just so I do not appear a braggart, pretty much every one of those boats was a world class P.O.S, with the exception of the Cape Dory and the kayak. I have a bad habit of fulfilling only the part of the restoration dream that consists of procuring these leaky money vaccuums. No yard sale deal is ever passed up. Unfortunately, I am better at turning them into lawn ornaments than works of art.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:04 pm

Hi, I'm Mike, and I'm a watercraftaholic. It's been 28 long hours since my last boat ride.

Once I get into a design hunting groove, I just can't help myself...

My favorite Devlin design. So sweet.

Back on topic... those Handy launches, do they have a transom, or are they teardrop-shaped?

Post by **dasein668** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:09 pm

Closer to bathtub shaped, actually!

They do have something classy going for them, though.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:31 pm

OK, I think I know the design. They have a real quick upturn at the run which causes them to squat something fierce when powered-up...

The Crosby 21, currently for sale: http://oldportmarine.com/usedbounce.htm

www.crosbyyacht.com also has a couple of tug designs, though they look to be based on the same hull.

penthinkfromhome · Post by **penthinkfromhome** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:45 pm

That's it! That's it!

Oh my God! That is it!

penthinkfromhome · Post by **penthinkfromhome** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:50 pm

21 passengers and an operator. For the love of all things good, I could hold a square dance on the damned thing!!!

that is beautiful! i can't get over it. no Carvers or cheeseball Larsons for this kid. That thing is a work of art.

But $21 large? I think Lackey Boatworks could build me one of those brand spanking new for half that price. And because I am a sailor, I would be perfectly content with an 11 horse diesel in something of that size. I could still smoke the fastest America's Cup boat hands down!

Tim, when do you get started?

Post by **Tim** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:18 am

With something like a certified, inspected launch, the asking price may seem to be be inflated to reflect the fact that indeed it is certified and inspected. These inspections tend to be picky and very specific, and bringing a previously uninspected boat up to snuff can be costly. Therefore, for a yacht club or some such entitity, it would be worth paying more for a boat with a recent inspection certificate--much the way an active fishing boat holds significant worth even though the bones of the boat itself may be decrepit.

Of course, this is irrelevant to you, the pleasure-buyer, but I thought I'd just justify the price a little; pricing of commercial boats rarely makes sense to the recreational buyer. I certainly wouldn't pay that kind of money for such a basic boat, but it's reasonable for what is truly being offered. Of course, the boat would have to be in very good condition to justify that asking price, even for a commercial entitity.

Note also that these launches weigh 9,000 lb. or more. The higher the weight (displacement), the more a boat costs. Per-pound costing is one of the more accurate ways to really compare vessels; a small, heavy boat will cost more to build (and therefore cost more to buy) than a large, light boat. When it comes right down to it, displacement is the true measure of size, not length.

I can only imagine what Crosby gets for one of these launches new.

Crosby Custom Launch

Post by **Tim** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:32 am

penthink wrote:But $21 large? I think Lackey Boatworks could build me one of those brand spanking new for half that price.

No way. The true material costs alone needed for reproducing that boat (for argument's sake) as you see it would cost more than 11K, not including the mechanicals. And that doesn't include what would be significant costs in labor. I think the boat could be built by a backyard builder for 20K, but not sold by the builder for that amount--at least not if recouping costs and making a living were taken into account. Oh yeah, and this all assumes that Crosby would just give their mold away to anyone willy-nilly. Tooling costs, not to mention the inevitable lawsuit from Crosby, to reproduce a plug on which to build the boat would eat through this theoretical 11K faster than the winner of a pie-eating contest.

Actually, if you compare this offering--stout fiberglass hull that's certified for over 25 passengers, diesel engine, charming looks, etc--with other powerboats in the 20-25' range, it's not a bad deal after all. Look at the junky Pursuits, Whalers, etc. and see what they cost. Yikes! Of course, much of their cost is in those huge outboards, which make diesels look cheap by comparison.

Short answer: if you must have a Crosby 21, that one in Newport doesn't look like a bad deal for you. And it's available now. My shop is full for this winter, I am afraid. (Can't wait to get back seriously to work on the Daysailor and finish that project and open that half of the shop back up...)

penthink wrote:Final offer: You build it, I will mow your lawn from here to eternity, and as a final incentive

I like mowing my lawn, actually! But if you'd consider painting my house and barn from here to eternity, we might have a deal! When can you start? ;<)

Post by **Tim** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:45 am

penthink wrote:...as a final incentive, I will call it something goofy (in order to REALLY fit in with the stinkpotters), like "Tim's Whim," or "A Lackey of Judgment."

I think not building it, if only to save the world from such vapid names, would be worth it! hehe

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:14 am

Yeah, A Lackey of Judgement is almost as good as The Wet Spot! hehe

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:26 am

Tim wrote: My shop is full for this winter, I am afraid. (Can't wait to get back seriously to work on the Daysailor and finish that project and open that half of the shop back up...)

Oh, sheesh! I won't ride the guilt train, man! hehe.

Hey, if you want the space, just say so... just do it before October 4! ;-P

Post by **Tim** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:35 am

Who said anything about guilt? As if I'd kick you out. What would I then do for entertainment? ;<)

I still like the idea of a segmented barn--just keep adding sections to the front, until I reach the road. Hey, it's what New England farmers have done for decades, right? Need more room...just add on a new section. If I did that, soon it would be connected to the house.

Heidi told me to build a bigger barn. Sigh. If only...

penthink · Post by **penthink** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:22 am

"Heidi told me to build a bigger barn."

Man, either the man upstairs overloaded you with self-control, or there's something here that you're not telling us. My better half said, "Go shopping," when I wanted a new boat, and there were burnout marks in the driveway. If I can get her on board with any project that has to do with boats, I figure I must be right with the Lord.

Anyway, I think you're right about all the things you said. And maybe in 30 years when the Natalie B is paid off, I will consider such a thing. Til then, I will have to sit and salivate every time I look at that Crosby. That is the coolest stinkpot ever.

And as for painting your house, if you throw in a 65 Jaguar XKE in convertible (black please), I will consider the painting gig. Otherwise, I have sworn to myself that the only house I will ever paint again is my own, and even then I will do so grudgingly.

m

Post by **Tim** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:30 am

Yeah, well...

As if a 30x40 barn wasn't luxurious enough! I had to draw the line somewhere, both for cost and for "fitting in" with the land on which it's built. Any bigger, on this lot, would have been just silly.

Now, when we move, it's a whole nother story.

And the only reason you can't see the burn-rubber marks on my driveway, from the times Heidi has given her OK to some new boat purchase, is because my driveway is gravel. I have wifely authority for one more personal boat, so...

penthink · Post by **penthink** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:39 am

You lucky dog! Sharon okayed the purchase of the 323, and I haven't been allowed to stop painting, mowing, weeding, pruning, scrubbing, sanding, insulating or generally maintaining our house since the boat was delivered. I'm not even allowed to look at it without trading some chore for the liberty. And one more purchase? Holy smokes. If I so much as bring a half model into the yard, I will be facing divorce proceedings.

Then again...

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:40 am

Hey now.... before we go talking about additions to the barn, I want to see that Triton weathervane installed! ;)

9000lbs is rather a big chunk to go trailering around. There must be quite a bit of ballast down in that belly!

A modified Godzilla would be more reasonable, I think. The cost could vary widely depending on your desired level of finish. The basic hull is just stitch-and-glue plywood. Except for the curved stern, it should knock together very quickly. If you "settle" for a workboat finish (entirely appropriate to the design, in my opinion) and delete the pilothouse, I think you could build it very economically indeed.

And I'll bet $20 that the gozilla doesn't squat so deeply when underway.

penthink · Post by **penthink** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:51 am

"As if a 30x40 barn wasn't luxurious enough! I had to draw the line somewhere..."

See what I mean, Tim? That is just not a level of self-control I am endowed with. If wifey said go, I would have had one of those chicken barns built like you used to see all over Maine. You know the ones - about a half mile long and four stories high. Then I would have bought up every old tub I could get for $50 and never finished, or even started restoring any of them.

You're right of course, Fig. 9000 pounds is ridiculous for trailering, unless of course I wanted to buy a Kenworth with a boat hauling trailer to accompany it. The Godzilli is probably the way I will go, sans the house. But when I get it done, I may tack a little picture of the Crosby on the console, just to keep that design in the fore of my mind.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:07 am

Figment wrote:Hey now.... before we go talking about additions to the barn, I want to see that Triton weathervane installed! ;)

I know, I know. The best laid plans...

Who has time to build cupolas with all these frigging boats! hehe

penthink · Post by **penthink** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:08 am

Seriously though, Fig, Tim, anyone else. My friend builds boats for money, so I will be heading this project up, and will be working a lot of nights when he isn't around. The fact is, I have no confidence in my woodworking skills, even if it is only "stitch and glue plywood."

Tim, I know you were involved in boatbuilding at one point in your life. Is this project (the godzilli) something a real amateur like me wants to take on? Or should I build a dinghy first to see if I am even capable of that without scaling tools out the window in frustration?

Post by **Tim** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:13 am

penthink wrote:...I haven't been allowed to stop painting, mowing, weeding, pruning, scrubbing, sanding, insulating or generally maintaining our house since the boat was delivered...

I have to do all that too, though I work hard to keep household tasks to a minimum.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:37 am

In your situation, I would suggest beginning with a stitch-and-glue dinghy, which would teach you the basic ins and outs of the process you, in theory, intend to use to build a Godzilli. If you were pleased with the end result, and felt confident thereafter--and, more importantly, felt like you truly enjoyed the process and would like to amplify the experience by building a larger boat--the Godzilli is, I believe, well within reach. This boat, and many others like it that you see all over the web, are intended for amateur builders.

That said, certain basic skills must be possessed for any boatbuilding project. Even a basic rectangular box can be challenging to complete succesfully for many people. One need not be a craftsman to complete a plywood boat to a workboat finish, but there are basic skills required to make a boat worthy of being launched.

What you do need to be, however, is accepting of your results, however good or bad they may be. It's easier to swallow the pain from a hypothetical dinghy that didn't turn out right than a bigger boat, representing more of an investment in time, money, and expectations. If you have doubts, start with the smaller boat and work from there. Doing so will serve as a valuable lesson and will teach you your own limitations, the limitations of your tool inventory, and so forth.

The key to any of these projects--whether building a dinghy or Godzilli, restoring an old boat, or even the simplest repairs and upgrades--is to be realistic about your own skills and limits, and to push them only when it's realistic to believe you are prepared to learn the new skill. As Dirty Harry says in one of those great films, "A man's got to know his limitations."

penthink · Post by **penthink** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:53 am

Well put. And almost exactly to the word what the guy from Devlin said to me just now.

And of course, who can't use another cool little dinghy lying around!!!

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:58 am

Pick up Devlin's boatbuilding book. For about twenty bucks, it's a good primer on the S&G process, and as I recall it's not a bad read.

If your local bookmonger doesn't stock it, I'm sure Devlin sells it somewhere on his website, along with all of the plans and such.

The internet is chock full of easy S&G dinghy plans. I think we had a thread of designs going on this board last year, in fact.

penthink · Post by **penthink** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:14 am

thanks guys. I'm going to pick up that book. What's really cool about projects like this is that everyone who has or is building one is so jazzed about talking about it, imparting advice, etcetera. And I do have to admit that I bought the "study plans" this morning (only $15), so I can take a look and have my friend look at it.

m

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:46 am

(DREDGE!)

I was reminded of this thread when I came across this ad on Craigslist: http://newlondon.craigslist.org/boa/351984652.html

Yacht Club Tender - $1700
Herrershoff 18' Harbor, 1975, Green Fiberglass hull

This is a sweet little 18 footer that has been dormant for 3yrs and now needs lots of TLC. She had been a working YC Tender until the 3cyl deisel inboard ceased up. The engine needs replacing, the transmission was fine. The fiberglass hull is solid but the woodwork needs refinishing.

I'm fairly sure I know the club and the boat. It isn't a Crosby bathtub, but it's still a pretty and serviceable little ride.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:38 pm

And they used the same hull mold to create several other boats too, including the catboat called Herreshoff America, the gaff-rigged sloop called the Herreshoff Eagle, and a few other versions of power boats. An interesting and versatile hull mold indeed.

Plastic Classic Forum

Pipedreaming

Pipedreaming

I don't know...

Exactly!!!