Materials list: Triton topsides paint

[Figment]

I'm putting together an Awlgrip materials order for topsides paint. Have a look at this and tell me if I've run afoul. Triton topsides area is about 150 square feet, right? Based on that:

Surfacing primer (AwlQuick) 1 gallon plus 1 gallon of converter for two coats

Ultra high build primer 2 gallons plus 2 gallons of converter for one coat plus a bit extra for spots that need a second pass.

Topcoat paint, 5 quarts plus 3 quarts of brushing converter to give at least three coats.

1-1/2 gallons of slow-evaporating reducer for use with the primer and the topcoat.
1 gallon of awl-prep cleaner.

What have I overlooked or miscalculated?
Thanks guys.

[Tim]

The Awl-Quick (which is a high build surfacer) and the Ultra High Build primer are probably not both needed. Instead, I'd choose one (avoid the Awl-Quik if you can brush the Ultra High Build), then add in the 545 finish primer afterwards. The finish primer will give a better result than going over the high build.

A gallon kit of each type of primer and topcoat will be more than abundant; this makes well over 2 gallons of product, including the substantial amount of reducer you add.

These paints all go on thinly when brushed and rolled, and you'll end up with significant extra with a gallon of everything.

So, here's a revised list. Be sure to double check the proper mix ratios for brush vs. spray, and buy accordingly. I know that Awl-Quik is a 1:1 mix for brush or spray, but am not sure about the other primers.

1. Either Awl-Quik or Ultra High Build: 1 gallon base, 1 gallon converter, plus 1 gallon primer reducer

2. 545 finish primer: 1 gallon base, appropriate amount of converter; I don't know offhand if 545 is mixed 1:1 or 2:1 for brushing, so be sure to confirm that and buy the proper amount of converter. Primer and topcoat do not use the same reducer, but all the primers share the same reducer.

3. Topcoat (2:1 mix for brush): 1 gallon topcoat, 1/2 gallon brushing converter, 1 gallon brushing reducer (T00031)

4. 1-2 gallons Awl-Prep cleaner. You'll use this to wipe down between every coat, and it'd be better to have too much than not enough.

Note also that for fine fairing, products like Awl Fair are very nice, smooth, and creamy, and don't form much in the way of porosity. They're quite a bit finer than a microballoon mix, and you might want to consider some for your final fairing, if need be.

How about the boottop? If you're using Awlgrip here, first of all be sure the boot is clear of the water when the boat is at rest. A quart of whatever color is more than adequate.

[Figment]

Yeah I realized last night that some of my quantities were off because I was using the final-thickness coverage rate for each coat, instead of the single-coat coverage rate.

Thanks, Tim.

[Figment]

GRRRRRRR. From two separate sources "S&S Blue is a discontinued color, but I might be able to find you someone who has a gallon sitting on a shelf somewhere if you want..."

Even if I can get my hands on a gallon this month, do I want to do a color that's discontinued? Thinking of future repairs and touch-ups.

Perhaps this is the way of the Universe telling me that I should just do the Claret red thing after all. Sigh.

(Academically, I know that in the paint world no color is ever truly "discontinued", it just takes forever to get it and you pay through the nose for a custom mix.)

[dasein668]

Even if I can get my hands on a gallon this month, do I want to do a color that's discontinued? Thinking of future repairs and touch-ups.

A gallon will keep you covered for a long time to come. When we painted Dasein we used barely more than a quart of color.

[Tim]

GRRRRRRR. From two separate sources "S&S Blue is a discontinued color, but I might be able to find you someone who has a gallon sitting on a shelf somewhere if you want..."

Well, rats! That's lousy news.

I guess you'll just have to go with Prairie Beige, then.



I'm trying to make some inquiries on your behalf, so don't despair just yet. And, as Nathan said, one gallon will cover you for a long time--you could repaint the whole boat in 5 or 10 years and still have some left over. This stuff goes on THINLY.

[Figment]

Prairie Beige.... that's an interesting idea.
I wouldn't have to bother washing the boatyard dust off every spring!

Awlgrip tells me that, as I intoned above, their "Awlmix distributors" can in fact do any color any time. I'm waiting to hear how long and how much.

[Tim]

Epifanes Yacht Enamel has a #206 "Blue Gray" that is very similar to Stars & Stripes blue. You may not want a standard enamel, however, and unfortunately, the Epifanes polyurethane does not have a comparable shade (nor does their monourethane).

[bhartley]

I contacted Awlgrip directly on February 13th. Beth Behrhorst stated that the color was available and it was Awlgrip Stars & Stripes Blue - Code Number - H5161

Here's her email address if you're still interestd: Beth.Behrhorst@awlgrip.com

I love the color; however, Miranda is being painted Plain Jane White...

Bly

[Tim]

For those who might be desperately in suspense wondering about the outcome of the Stars & Stripes sage, I found that Alexseal offers Stars & Stripes Blue, # T-5160, as a stock color.

[Figment]

It occurred to me to comment on my over-ordering the high-build in this thread, where it might actually do a future someone some good.
Two TOTAL MIXED gallons of high-build is sufficient. Halve the quantity I listed above. (yeah, Tim had it right but it didn't penetrate my thick head)

So anyway, I must again comment that this high-build primer is some glorious stuff. After weeks of grinding gelcoat and then sanding various fairing compounds, it is a near-orgasmic pleasure to be sanding this stuff. (boy, is that pathetic or what?)
It cuts evenly, consistently, cleanly, and leaves a silky-smooth surface behind. It's going to break my heart to cover it with finishing primer.

[kendall]

Prairie Beige.... that's an interesting idea.
I wouldn't have to bother washing the boatyard dust off every spring!

Hah!
That's why I was very happy driving a brown car living at the end of a 15 mile dirt road in oregon!

Planning a repaint next week,maybe week after, so I'm interested in this thread.
any advice anyone wants to throw in will be apreciated

ken.

[jollyboat]

ken, what are you painting, are you using awl-grip?

[kendall]

ken, what are you painting, are you using awl-grip?

another triton topsides, mine always looked great except for a small spot at the stern where the paint had been scraped off, but last week I was up there and noticed a couple spots that were pretty dull looking, and like a twit I started scraping at them, was able to pull the paint off in sheets. Looks to me like someone in the dim past use a water based paint, there are at least three color coats on it, each with primer, the first coat is yellow, and it's a real soft stretchy paint, feels just like latex. can't figure it, the primer for that coat is hard as a rock, tried scraping it with a plane iron, and it was hard enough that after a few good tries I think I'll let it stay there.

The first two coats (from the outside) are very hard and shiny, not sure what they are, but acetone doesn't seem to phase them, and they are brittle when peeled off, they come off in little squares stuck to the yellow.

I want to try a few solvents on that primer, try to get a real good idea of what type it is, and find something that's compatable with it, if I liked grey, I'd be able to strip it down to that!

Didn't want to paint this year, but I'm glad I found it now instead of when I'm sitting all proud and happy in the water, good thing is I can do it with a scraper, and shouldn't have to do much sanding.

Ken

[The Good Goose]

Ken
the awlgrip manual lists a procedure for determining if their product is compatible with a previous coating. It involves scoring the coating and putting a pad soaked in one of there products(I cant remember which one) on it overnight. Definately do this test. the last thing you want is your beautiful paint job to go all bubbly in a week or so.

On the list of products needed don't forget whatever non cloth material awlgrip reccomends for use wiping the hull down with. I used papertowels on my boat soaked in the awlgrip cleaning solvent. I'm sure there is something better but paper towells seemed to work out ok for me. Whatever you choose you need to have a lot of them as you can only do a small area before changing them out. I wiped down first with acetone and then with the awlgrip product.

Brock Richardson

[kendall]

don't want the paint bubbling off! Mine was looking fine till I got bored and started picking at it!

If I can use awlgrip with that primer coat, I'd be vary happy, it's nice and smooth and the old paint comes off to it fairly easily.

Didn't mean to hijack your thread Figment, it was just dead on to what I was going to ask about!

Ken.

[jollyboat]

Hi again Ken - Sound like you and I are in the same boat in many repects with our Tritons. I am also planning on/started the Awl-Grip process on the topsides this Spring. I have used Awl-Grip many times on previous jobs with great success including my previouse Triton at least five 'Grip jobs. Your planning to 'test' the paints on the boat in an effort to discover how it may react to the Awl-Grip is a very good idea otherwise you could be faced with a reaction issue with the Awl-Grip. The top sides on 466, like your hull have many layers of who knows what. I plan on stripping the paint down to the gel-coat and start fresh with Awl-Primer and to top coat. Awl-Grip does offer a primer that is covers non - compatible surfaces that I have used with very good results, but I like to start fresh if I can.
A word of caution on that front is that this primer cures to a very hard surface and demands a lot of sanding if applied in a less than neat manner. I have both 'rolled and tipped' and 'sprayed' with success with both but if you can spray this is the method that I now prefer. I have also sprayed awl-grip using the brushing catalist and brushed using the spraying catalist. Tempature and humity had a lot [everthing] to do with my deciding which I used at the time. If you have the time I would consider stripping all the existing paint down to original gel coat. This will provide a lot of insight as to what is under all that paint as well give you a look at any repairs that may have been made in the past that you may want to revisit with 2006 technology in the product department. With your hull stripped you can be much more assured of a positive result and much reduced compatability problems. Keep us posted on your progress as I hope to with my own projects - I hope that I have been helpful in some manner.
Good Sailing

[jollyboat]

Figment - the surface cleaner that Awl-Grip sells wrapped in their lable is pretty much stove alcohol so if money is an issue stove alcohol is about four times less cash. Never heard/read the bit on using a certain type of wiping cloth material - I have always used white cotton rags - not my old cloths but purchased white cotton rags - could you bring up to speed on the 'prefered material' recomendation.

[jollyboat]

Ooops - make that question to Good Goose

[The Good Goose]

Maybe I am confusing the reccomendations for painting aluminum. I know they reccomend not using cloth rags for that. I don't remember if those applied to fiberglass or not. Its been almost 6 years since I did my paint so my memory is alittle dim on the subject.
Its all in the Awlgrip manual I'm sure
Brock

[Tim]

The concerns Brock is mentioning relate to the aluminum preparation method, as detailed in the Awlgrip application guide, that uses 36 grit paper to etch the metal surface. The application guide recommends that no rags of any type be used for wipedowns over this rough surface, as the roughness may cause small fibers to catch off the cloth--fibers that may not be immediately visible. These fibers can later on act as a moisture wick into the substrate, causing widespread paint failure.

Here is the applicable text from the Awlgrip website:

Grind with 36 grit paper and/or sand blast thoroughly to bright, clean aluminum. The metal must be bright silver, completely free of gray oxidation. The surface profile will be 4-6 mils (100-150 microns).

Blow off the surface thoroughly with clean, dry, compressed air to remove all blast/grind residue and any dust or dirt. Use a brush or broom if necessary.

Caution: Do not use rags to clean this surface. The sharp metal will snag fibers from the rags. These fibers can act as wicks for moisture or other contamination to enter the paint film. This can lead to premature failure of the Awlgrip Coating System.

This is not a concern for a properly prepared fiberglass hull. As always, of course, the cloth should be as lint-free as possible.

As to substituting other solvents for the manufacturer-supplied version: well, I won't do it. The solvent cost is so small in the overall scheme of this paint job using high-quality and expensive paints, that I can't imagine trying something else, however close it may be. Only by following the proper procedure, including using the correct materials, can one guarantee that the results--and longevity--will be as desired, and will be results that the manufacturer will also stand behind should something go wrong with the coating later. Using an inappropriate material at any stage of the process is to negate any product support the manufacturer may be willing to give later.

[jollyboat]

Tim, I again agree with your comments on staying within the manufactures guidlines and product use - as how can I not. The stove alcohol comment that I made a few threads up was made in reference to cleaning the hull after it has been sanded and washed down. I aways scrub down the surfaces with soap and water to remove any oils, wax whatever and finally wipe the entire hull down with ether acetone or alcohol after it has been sanded to further get the surface ready for paint application. This is my own method which is fine for me but after reading your comments I realize that it better off to stick with the basics on some of these issues.

Cheers and Good Sailing

[kendall]

Hi again Ken - Sound like you and I are in the same boat in many repects with our Tritons. I am also planning on/started the Awl-Grip process on the topsides this Spring. I have used Awl-Grip many times on previous jobs with great success including my previouse Triton at least five 'Grip jobs. Your planning to 'test' the paints on the boat in an effort to discover how it may react to the Awl-Grip is a very good idea otherwise you could be faced with a reaction issue with the Awl-Grip.
Good Sailing

Sorry for the delayed response, got an emergency call for a trim carpenter in Ludington, been up there all week, likely be there till june, may have to put the repaint on hold for a while

You've been great help, I have been debating spray vs roll and tip, I've painted a lot of cars, and looked at the triton from a spraying viewpoint it looks like an easy spray, no climbing to get the roof or ducking to get the rockers, or contortions to spray the jambs!

Did get some playing around in, the grey 'primer' looks like it's a sealer right on the gell coat, very solid and extremely well attached, If it's non-reactive with awl-grip, I think I'll do a good sanding and cleaning, then choose a color, thinking of staying black, or going wih the absolute darkest blue I can find. Have a buddy with a '70 charger that's super dark blue, and most people that mention it call it 'charlies BLACK car' hte blue doesn't realy show unless it's in direct sunlight, and I like the color.

Thanks!
Ken.

[jollyboat]

I like the flag blue and plan on using flag blue on 466. I tried to post some pictures on the forum of 346 with fresh paint job sailing in the sf bay but up loaded them on the pictures "sticky" thread by mistake. (rookie mistake) They are there if you want to check the pics out. If you have sprayed cars in the past with success I would definitely spray the boat as well. It is pretty straight forward. Hope you find the time to continue working on the boat.