Report from the Newport boat show, we almost bought a boat

[MarkWilme]

I guess a lot of people almost buy a boat, especially with the free alcohol they give away

Anyhows,

We went to the Newport Boat show on Friday (rain, rain, rain) and I know most of you aren't going to like this but we pretty much got smitten with a new boat from one of the big manufacturers. Now, we didn't order it yet or anything (actually there is only one on the Eastern seaboard) but we made some serious inquiries and I (sharp intake of breath) started a spreadsheet.

The model in question is the Jeanneau 39 DS. It comes from the dealer commissioned , rigged, sea-trialed and equipped with some electronics (ST6002 auto pilot, ST60 wind, ST60 tri data).





The purpose of the spreadsheet is to start to determine what else we would need to get a new boat commissioned and usable (in case we turn out to be serious) based on the assumption that I sell my current boat as a going concern equipped with all the boat stuff (personal stuff including my navigation tools, foul weather gear, bedding etc transfer over) so I am now looking to figure out what we need and then price new.

So far my list has the following :

• Dodger
  Bimini
  2 anchors (CQR and folding fortress in a bag), one with 60ft chain + rode, the other with 25ft chain + rode (primary and backup)
  6 new fenders (3rd mate or equivelant) and covers (I'll splice my own whips)
  Possible Raymarine C80 chartplotter or at least pre run the wiring (in 2 minds as to whether I need at the hel or at the nav - currently I have neither doing it all by paper)
  Lee cloths
  Fire extinguishers
  New set of flares
  Decals for transom (Name and hailing port)
  RAM extension mic
  A "net" for the 'open' transom to catch wayward 4 year olds
  Jacklines
  110v sump pump to augment the 12v
  Pots, pans, dishes etc
  Rail BBQ
  Propane tank(s)
  Radar reflector
  MOB pole ?
  Various spares (impellers, filters, head rebuild kits etc)
  Radar reflector
  30A shore power cord
  Ensign flag and pole for transom
  Smoke, CO2 and Carbon Monoxide detectors
  Lifesling or equivelant

I think this would also be a useful exercise to gain feedback from the community both on what they consider neccesarry on a boat as well as (maybe) any viewpoints or experience on different brands and models.

I am also looking for the dealer to see if they can get the main equipped with vertical foam battens (and still furl into the mast) for a larger roach on the leech.

My question is - what have I missed on this list ?

Also, if you want to opine on the boat itself please do, but I know this is a die hard crowd but all that wood and older boat is maintenance I'd rather not have ifI can afford it.

Mark

P.S. I saw some of the new modern classic daysailors at the show too including the Hinkley etc- beautiful boats but for oil/varnish fiends only.

[Jason K]

I recently went aboard a Sun Odyssey 54 (or was it 52?) DS. It was a very nice boat and looked well-finished. I also race on a Jeanneau and it is a pretty tough boat.

[Rachel]

we made some serious inquiries and I (sharp intake of breath) started a spreadsheet.

Heh, I guess you are serious then ;-)

The purpose of the spreadsheet is to start to determine what else we would need to get a new boat commissioned and usable...

{much listage removed from quote}

My question is - what have I missed on this list ?

Reading this I'm wondering: How do you plan to use the boat?

--- R.

[Tim]

Ensign flag and pole for transom

I'm happy to see this on your list. Way too many boats sail flag-less. Thank you.

My question is - what have I missed on this list ?

You may not use, want, or need it in Narragansett Bay where you sail, but in Maine a radar set would pretty much be considered to be a normal item on any expensive new boat outfitting list.

Of course, there's no end to any potential list for boat outfitting. I assume you're planning on continuing your current use of daysailing, weekending, and occasional week-or two-week cruises, perhaps one day a bit futher afield (up to Maine, perhaps?). For this sort of sailing, your list seems to cover the basics. At the moment (it's really early), nothing else pops into my mind, but there's inevitably something missing.

Possible Raymarine C80 chartplotter or at least pre run the wiring (in 2 minds as to whether I need at the hel or at the nav - currently I have neither doing it all by paper)

I don't know the specifics of this or any other model number, but I can't imagine outfitting a new boat without using the current technology in terms of GPS chartplotters.

I think the display belongs at the helm so that the helmsperson can easily steer in inclement weather. Ideally, dual readouts (one below) would be nice, but that could get silly. The twin helms on "your" new boat would also complicate helm installation.

Now, we didn't order it yet or anything

Key word being "yet"? :<)

Good luck with your process!

[Quetzalsailor]

I've always thought that pointy windows were suspect. Surely there is a price to pay in stress concentration and flexure as well as how much tougher it would be to maintain the watertightness. Certainly the long skinny windows in our '72 Morgan 27 were impossible to keep tight for long. It would make me wonder what other design and construction decisions were made in the interests of 'style'.

I had a boss who used to say, variously, about building things, that 'if it's too hard to do then it's the wrong thing to do' or 'if it looks wrong it probably is wrong'. And I'd wonder about styling oddities appearing fresh enough, long enough to become Classic Plastic.

[jollyboat]

Battlestar Galactia!

[dmairspotter]

Well, now that you've admitted it, I can admit it. I have been admiring those Jeanneau DS designs from afar, (very afar). I like the pointy windows, Reminiscent of the ALC 35s and medalists, boats I also think are beautiful...

What about the boat (if you can narrow it down) lit your fire?

[Mark.Wilme]

Thank you all for your feedback

Heh, I guess you are serious then ;-)

- If I start a spreadsheet then of course I am serious!

What about the boat (if you can narrow it down) lit your fire?

It was the cockpit closely folowed by the interior light woodwork and layout. The cockpit I think is just outstanding. Dual helms with easy walk through space to the transom (I could dock the boat stern in). Plus the sheet winches are right there for either helmsman or crew/guests to handle. There is plenty of seating space whilst underway and with a 4 year old (who will become a 6, 8, 10 ... year old) that's important as it is for guests. The cockpit mounted traveller we have right now in a small cockpit invaded by a tiller is fairly restrictive. I also like the galley, plenty of counter space, good ventillation and well laid out.

How do you plan to use the boat?

This one I should have answered from the start. Day sailing in Narragansett bay where I would prefer shoal draft. Weekending also in the bay - on the hook and in other marinas. 3-4 day trips to The Vineyard, Cuttyhunk, Block Island, Nantucket, Westport, Sippician etc.

In the future summer cruising in the same areas plus Long island sound and the inside bay of Cape cod - maybe 5+ years from now venturing Down East. Bythis time I will know if I need radar and can add after the fact. I am not sure I need it now.

I'm happy to see this on your list. Way too many boats sail flag-less. Thank you.

I had to sail "flag less" for a time this summer when we left the flag up on the spreader for a week while we were away from the boat and it got shredded by the wind. Rather than fly a tattered flag (got to uphold that newly accquired US citizenship) we elected to take the flag down and formally retire it (local Boy Scout troup do it for you for free - but we gave them a donation).

I think the display belongs at the helm so that the helmsperson can easily steer in inclement weather. Ideally, dual readouts (one below) would be nice, but that could get silly. The twin helms on "your" new boat would also complicate helm installation.

Yes and no- the demo boat showed the chartplotter mounted on the aft end of the cockpit table, accessible from both helms - a nice compromise I thought. I can see needing to use the chartplotter underway at the helm, but also needing to plan with it at the Nav - my guess is something "movable" is out of the question. Of course this is conjecture because right now I sail with paper chatrts, dead reckoning, regular old set and drift and a hand held gps for backup.

Battlestar Galactia!

I think we will see more boats like this in future. I was put off originally, just like I was with the eyebrow on the older 43DS, but we sailed the 43DS in Florida / Bahamas when I did my ASA qualifications and the view from within as well as the natural light is outstanding. That's really got me hooked onto the more light aspect of deck salons.


And now for the change up ...

Having said all that we had a long conversation last night about the dillema of buying new versus barely used. Why would we spend 200k on a new boat (which I would dread scratching for the first time) and then maybe another 10k or 15k on outfitting it, when we could get say a12-18 month old boat fully outfitted for say 60% to 70% of that price ? Of course it may not be the exact same model - it wont be in this case as the 39DS is brand new and even a lightly used model will have someone elses scratches on it and they may not have accessorized it quite the way we would but the right boat at the right price (someone elses misfortune and all that) would or could be a compelling story.

To illustrate that point a quick web search finds that I can find an 'as new' Beneteau 393 for say $150k to $165k that's quite a saving on what is allegedly a capable boat. It doesn't have my ideal cockpit and it has roof windows (3 of them) verus a deck salon layout and the wood interior is darker (that's 3 and's in a sentence - sorry Tim) but it could represent a 25% saving, more if I found the right boat or my initial assesmet of 39DS cost is wrong - of course with a used boat there is always the "I want it now" factor, that a long wait for a new boat will not allow for.


So,more thinking to do, more anguish (self inflicted) and still 6 weeks left in the sailing season (we haul 10/31). I think we need to consider our new v old decision and one way to do that is to go and kick the post boat show tires on some boats and see what we think of 12-18 month old boats.

Hopefully that's enough for now.

Thanks for listening.

Mark

[Mark.Wilme]

By the way, here is a view of that cockpit layout I was raving about.





And also some shots of the interior woodwork.







Mark

[catamount]

FWIW, my father-in-law recently acquired a Catalina Morgan 440, which is also a "Deck Salon" model. For he and his wife, the days of climbing down into a dark cave are over...(although he still does pretty well getting up and down on my boat!)

I haven't yet sailed on the CM440, but it is sure tricked out with all the latest stuff (including two freezers and a washer/dryer, etc...).

[Tim]

I'm not picking on your boat; this is a general comment aimed at most new boats.

I've just never understood the logic behind these aft or midships heads. Wasting the best space on the boat for a head just seems illogical.

It doesn't matter where the head is, but when designers use up a large portion of the widest and deepest part of the boat for this, it just seems wasteful.

That said, I hate overly cramped head compartments, but those can be avoided in other ways too.

[Tim]

Having said all that we had a long conversation last night about the dillema of buying new versus barely used.

There's no question that you are right about this concern. We all know that boats are not investments, and as such new boats will tend to lose value quickly.

But if it's this particular model that caught your eye, rather than just the temptation to get a larger or newer boat, then of course you have to weigh that in the equation.

In the end, pleasure boats exist to make us happy. So get the boat that makes you happy, whatever that boat might be.

[catamount]

I've just never understood the logic behind these aft or midships heads. Wasting the best space on the boat for a head just seems illogical.

An argument can be made for putting the head right by the companionway -- so a wet crewmember coming in from the storm outside to use the facilities doesn't have to tramp their way through the whole salon, getting everything wet in the process. For that reason, you might put the wet hanging locker (for foulies) next to the companionway, too. Some of these mid-ship heads are cleverly tucked in under the house/cockpit transition, so they are not really taking up a lot of cabin space...

At least the boat Mark is considering doesn't have two heads--now that's wasteful!

Regards,

[dasein668]

At least the boat Mark is considering doesn't have two heads--now that's wasteful!

Hehe. Actually though, there is an argument for multiple heads in a mid to large sized boat designed for off shore work. For example, Palawan (off shore racing boat) had two head: One facing port all the way foreward, one facing starboard in the space leading from the galley to the aft cabin and one facing forward. So that no matter which tack you were racing on you had a comfortable-to-use pot!

[Tim]

I've just never understood the logic behind these aft or midships heads. Wasting the best space on the boat for a head just seems illogical.

An argument can be made for putting the head right by the companionway -- so a wet crewmember coming in from the storm outside to use the facilities doesn't have to tramp their way through the whole salon, getting everything wet in the process. For that reason, you might put the wet hanging locker (for foulies) next to the companionway, too. Some of these mid-ship heads are cleverly tucked in under the house/cockpit transition, so they are not really taking up a lot of cabin space...

At least the boat Mark is considering doesn't have two heads--now that's wasteful!

Regards,

That's a good counterpoint, and a legitimate reason for such a placement. But let's be honest: boats like this Jeaneau, and most modern cruising boats, are rarely sailing in those sorts of conditions, and the head placement in this case is not for that reason.

The designers put the head there in these boats because it's close to the "stateroom" aft and because it allows more room in the head. Fair enough, but it still compromises saloon or galley space in the process.

I don't like midships heads, but that doesn't mean others can't like them! For the amount of wet sailing that I ever do, which is minimal, I'll take wet gear in the cabin any day.

[Ceasar Choppy]

Having completely refinished the head on two boats where it was located forward just aft of the v-berth, I can tell you an aft head looks like a great spot.

Aside from the wet foulies issue, I think there are few more reasons they are now located aft: 1. more headroom-- esp for taking a shower; 2. more options for placement of the holding tank (weight aft) with shorter hose runs and (theoretically) less stink; 3. more comfortable underway (the further from the pointy end the better).

Its always a compromise... that is why its called a boat. One interesting thing I remember on one of the Hinckley SW 54s (?) was a shower where the v-berth should be. Made some sense I guess-- but then again, it had two heads. ;)

[Figment]

Though I basically agree with the sentiment against aft heads, I think Caesar makes some good points, and I offer the Niagara 35 as an example. (as well as similar Mark Ellils layouts like the Nonsuch fleet)


That big wide-open forward saloon is actually a really nice space. If it were located aft, at the point of maximum beam, there would be a little too much dancefloor between the settees, and that's REALLY wasted space!

[Mark.Wilme]

Just to confuse everyone and show how difficult boat buying decisions are we priced out the 39DS with some dealer options and a bunch of "stuff" I would buy at Defender prices and it's $210k - gulp .

So we are leaning towards this used boat thing - we have our eyes on a local 2005 Beneteau 393 - I know, I know .... I think I can get the boat for 2/3 of the new price of the 39DS and I can have it ASAP (winter storage prepaid) versus maybe waiting 10 months for a new 39DS.

Everything I read and people I talk to say the Beneteaus are in a differnet class to the Hunters and Catalinas - I tend to believe that in fact the manufacturer toats that more B's have crossed the oceans on their own bottoms than any other boats. If charter companies use them they must have some robustness to them to deal with 40+ weeks a year of continuous use, right ?

Now this boat has three skylights which give the same amount of light down below (I like that) but mainrtain some privacy when at the dock or in a crowded anchorage that the DS windows on the Jeanneau don't provide. Also it has two heads - dialogue as discussed earlier today - one in the forepeak and another at the foot of the companionway steps. What it does not have is that cockpit, but is that worth a large chunk of $60k or xcan I be happy with what it has, maybe 1 folding wheel and some stern seats ?

I have been speaking with the seller today and have his specs plus some notes from our discussions below.


So - any other comments ? good or bad ?






Boat specs


LOA: 39' 4'
Hull Length: 38' 2'
LWL: 35' 1'
Beam: 13' 0'
Draft (stnd): 5' 1'

Displacement: 17,152 lbs. (approx)
Engine: 56 hp.
Fuel Capacity: 36 gal.
Water Capacity: 119 gal.
Mast Height (over water): 51' 6'
Hull / Designer: Berret/Racoupeau
Sail Area: 753 sq. ft.

RIG DIMENSIONS
Mast: Classic / Furler
I = 46'1' / 46'1'
J = 14'6' / 14'6'
P = 40'4' / 40'0'
E = 15'1' / 15'1'


DECK EQUIPMENT
? Stainless steel stem setting w/offset anchor roller
? electric windless
? Self-draining chain locker
? Anodized aluminum toe-rail
? 4 aluminum roller fairleads on toe-rail
? 6 aluminum mooring cleats
? Stainless steel bow rail w/navigation lights
? Stainless steel stanchions with double lifelines
? Lifeline gates
? SS stern rail w/brackets for life-buoy and flagstaff
? Lowering helm seat for transon access (Patented)
? 4 SS handrails on coachroof
? 1 sail locker in cockpit on port side
? 1 locker for 2 gas bottles on port side
? 2 cockpit aft lockers
? Slatted teak cockpit seats
? Cockpit drop-leaf table
? Leather-covered SS steering wheel on pedestal w/instrument console, SS handrail, throttle lever, compass and cup holders
? Engine panel on cockpit coaming w/plexi shield
? 1 winch handle holder
? Transom with slatted teak swim platform
? Stainless steel swim ladder
? Hot - cold cockpit shower
? Protective rubber strake on transom
? Manual bilge pump
? Genoa sheet tracks on side decks w/adjustable cars
? Genoa sheet lead blocks with built-in stoppers
? 2 Lewmar? 48 CSTC primary winches
? Coachroof mainsail traveller adjustable from cockpit
? 1 coachroof Lewmar 30 CSTO winch for control lines
? 5 Spinlock? XT jammers for halyards, reefing lines, vang and main sheet
? 1 dorade vent with adjustable ventilator
? Stern light

RIGGING
? Deck-stepped anodized aluminum mast with stainless steel support post inside salon
? 2 sets of aft-swept spreaders
? Stainless steel standing rigging: cap shrouds, lower shrouds, forestay, baby stay and twin backstays
? Anodized aluminum boom
? Furling genoa with drum above deck
? Main halyard
? Genoa halyard with jammer on mast
? Main boom topping lift
? Main sheet with block - tackle system
? Genoa sheets
? Rigid boom vang adjustable from cockpit
? In-mast furling
? Clew outhaul

SAILS
? Neil Pryde? bi-radial dacron 140 % roller furling genoa with anti-UV strip and Neil Pryde multi-track foam luff system
? Neil Pryde bi-radial dacron roller furling mainsail
? Neil Pryde cruising Gennaker (used 6 times)

INTERIOR LAYOUT

COMPANIONWAY
? 2 companionway plexi hatchboards
? Hinged two-part GRP companionway steps for access to engine
? 4 curved moulded GRP steps

FORWARD CABIN
? Storage shelves along length of hull
? 2 storage drawers under berth
? 1 hanging locker with shelves on starboard side
? 1 settee with shelf locker

SALON
? U-shaped settee with dinette
? Storage under settee
? Small central seat w/storage
? Dinette table with aluminum legs
? Table convertible into double berth
? 2 shelf lockers with sliding doors (slotted for ventilation)
? Large storage cabinet and drawers forward

GALLEY TO STARBOARD
? Laminated work surface over icebox and around sink
? Stainless steel guard-rail
? 160 (5.6 cu.ft.) litre GRP icebox w/12 v electric fridge
? Cutlery drawer
? Cabinets w/slotted doors for ventilation
? Stowage under oven with hinged door
? 2 rectangular stainless steel sinks
? Pressurized hot and cold water mixer tap
? Trash can
? 2 burner LPG stove/oven

2 HEADs
? Fully moulded head
? Manual marine toilets (Jabsco)
? Washbasin with pressurized hot and cold water
? Shower drain pump
? Cabinet, mirror, bathroom accessories
? Laminated wood handrail
? Holding tanks (2) - 24 gallon each, pump out and Y valve discharge, both fitted with macerators

NAV STATION
? Chart table with storage and molded fiddle rail
? Storage under table
? Navigation instrument panel
? Electric panel - 12 V 20 functions
? Battery charge indicator, 12 V socket
? 110 V panel
? Nav seat with locker
? Halogen light

AFT CABINS: 3 CABIN VERSION
? Double berth
? Hanging locker
? Storage shelves along length of hull

ENGINE
? 56 hp yanmar diesel **this was a 5k upgrade when new
? Sound-proofng foam in engine compartment
? Engine panel on cockpit coaming
? Engine throttle lever on steering console
? Stainless steel propeller shaft with GRP protection moulded into hull
? Fixed three blade propeller
? Engine bed integrated into hull liner

ELECTRICAL SYSTEM
? Electric water system with expansion tank
? 110 V system with 20 amp battery charger
? 8 x 110 V outlets in cabins and salon
? Grounded rigging
? 3 service battery 600 Amp
? 1 engine battery 100 Amp
? Halogen ceiling lights in salon, galley - cabins
? Fluorescent ceiling light in galley
? Reading lights in cabins
? Approved navigation lights

PLUMBING SYSTEM
? Engine and electric water heater
? Electric shower drain pumps
? Manual bilge pump in cockpit
? Electric bilge pump with .oat switch
? 2 rotomolded water tanks - 131 gal. capacity

WINDOWS/OPENINGS/VENTILATION
? 7 opening hatches - 8 opening ports
? 1 sliding companionway weather board and 2 part plexi weather boards
? 1 Lewmar 584 x 123 mm opening port: aft head
? 2 Lewmar 584 x 123 mm angled opening port salon
? 1 large 2000 x 400 mm panoramic Perspex? port with ABS blinds
? 1 Lewmar low profle size 30 opening hatch above forward head
? 2 Lewmar low profile size 30 opening hatches above salon
? 1 Lewmar low profile size 30 opening hatch: fwd cabin
? 1 Lewmar low profile size 44 opening hatch: fwd cabin
? Fixed hull ports in aft cabins, salon and fwd cabin
? 2 Lewmar 257 x 109 mm opening ports in cockpit for aft cabins
? 2 Lewmar 300 x 120 mm opening ports on coachroof for aft cabins
? 2 Lewmar low profile size 10 opening hatches: aft cabins
? 1 Lewmar 584 x 123 mm opening port: chart table

EXTRA GEAR
2 west marine electrical heaters
chart books from new jersey to Maine (2005)
8' inflatable dingy with 5 hp nissian 4 stroke outboard



? Raytheon? ST60 Tridata
? Raytheon ST60 Wind
? Raymarine color Radar/chart plotter screen in cockpit and at Nav station
? raymarine autopiolet
? ICOM? M402 VHF marine radio
? AM/FM Stereo w/CD player/10disk changer
? Microwave
? Shore power cord
? Hot - cold cockpit shower
? electric windless with 300' of 3/8 anchor chain
? sunbrella dodger with attached awning to back stays
? ac inverter



Notes from todays dialogue with seller :

30A shore power, 50A splitter included
both gas bottles included
3 winch handles
2 cabin top winches - not one
epoxy barrier underneath Micron CSC
has a remote light key fob thingy (like a car) that turns on theater lighting in the cockpit and the cabin when you return late at night so you don't have to stumble for a flashlight
Dodger and "awning" that attaches to dodger
red night lights
color radar at helm, B&W at nav station - boat appears to have radar installed
inclusive of 2005 E-charts Canada to Block Island
fixed Bene prop
never raced
no monitors on tanks
upgraded balmar HD alternator (60A)
batteries replaced with AGM May 2005
bunch of spares and tools (filters, belts, joker flaps etc)
stern rail BBQ grille in bag, detachable, spearate cannister
$2,000 canvas winter cover - from the canvas store =- fits over boom and secures to toe rail
Yanmar proffessionally winterized
Has the impeller at the FRONT - earlier engines it was at the back and innaccessible
Primary anchor = plow. 200' chain
Secondary anchor = danforth, 50' chain spliced to 250' rode
West Marine (Groupe Zodiac) Hi Press infl floor dinghy - no leaks, no patches
external 3 gall tank on 4 horse outboard
no RAM mic in the cockpit - he uses a handheld (included)
flares - all new Spring 2006
extinguishers all in service
life sling included
tethers included
jack lines included
5 fenders, no covers, 8+ dock lines assorted lengths
Winter storage 2006/2007 PRE PAID

[Mark.Wilme]

B 393 layout - with both heads and showers !

[Jason K]

As you mentioned the B's are big in the charter biz. Why don't you spend three or five days on one and see what you think. The manufacturer websites and brochures are great, but they do what they are supposed to - highlight the positives.

You really need to spend a little time on a boat to see what you think. Is the cockpit comfortable, is the salon laid out practically and safely, are the sail controls well engineered, does the boat accelerate out of a tack fast enough, etc. etc, ad nauseum.

[bcooke]

If charter companies use them they must have some robustness to them to deal with 40+ weeks a year of continuous use, right ?

One word. Depreciation. Use them up and then dump them. I don't really know if this is how it works in the boat charter world but that is how I would do it if I were in the charter business. Other industries seem to follow that model.

Good point about chartering one for a week. You could learn a lot about a boat in that week.

-Britton

[Rachel]

I don't know enough about Beneteaus to speak to many of the details, but one thing did strike me when I looked at the layout: I'm not sure how important this is to you - or even if it is an issue since I haven't actually seen the boat - but I see those two doubles aft and immediately think "Arrgh, no lazarette space."

It might just be one of my "things," but it drives me crazy to have no cockpit/deck stowage lockers, and to have to bring all that stuff down below to stow it. I would give up one of those aft berths in a heartbeat to have a good sized cockpit locker.

Also, I've never spent any time on a boat with an aft cabin, but is there enough ventilation for comfortable sleeping? Or would one just be an inconvenient "garage."

Fun to think about a possible new boat, isn't it :-)

--- R.

[Tim]

I think boats with layouts optimized for chartering--such as that 393B layout, with 3 double cabins--make poor candidates for "real" boats.

First of all, all that sleeping space--designed for 3 couples--that you don't really need takes away from important interior and storage space.

Second of all, most charter boats have cut-down rigs designed to make tradewind sailing easier for the often-inexperienced crews. These rigs don't always translate well to other areas. Pushing a rectangular boat with a shorter-than-normal rig through the light airs and slop of the northeast summer could be frustrating. Keep that in mind when making decisions. This particular example, if it wasn't actually part of a charter fleet, might not have the reduced rig--or it might be standard equipment. I don't know, and am speaking in generalities.

As to the claim about Beneteaus having crossed the ocean on their own bottoms: well, Catalinas and Hunters are built in the US, meaning that delivery to their main market is a matter of trucking or short-hop inshore delivery, while Beneteaus are built in France and must therefore cross oceans to get to their main selling market.

Beneteau is the leader in terms of charter fleets, and all those boats cross the ocean on their own bottoms--once, as a professional delivery. Yes, the boats apparently do fine with this sail and indeed they cross the Atlantic, but I wouldn't put too much stock in this particular claim. Marketing at its finest.

Beneteaus are what they are. I am not going to heap praise, nor offer negative comments, on the boats. They clearly serve an important market and offer what many consumers want. They are no better or worse than their competition.

Beneteau is a massive, huge, incredibly huge company, and they have vast marketing power, impressive buying power, and through their amazing high-tech factory are able to crank out boats with minimal labor and cost. As a supplier to charter fleets worldwide, which replace their boats every year or three, they have a large need to fill, and have optimized and automated their production in ways that US manufacturers can't begin to touch. This tranlates to a lot of boat for relatively small amounts of money, which makes them pretty attractive to a lot of buyers.

The nature of this particular forum is such that most readers will not necessarily see eye to eye with this genre of boat. Don't let that get in your way if your own needs and desires happen to be different.

If this 393B is the boat for you, then I suggest you approach its purchase as you would any other: evaluate the particular boat on its individual pros and cons, and its individual structural quirks, if any.

If you feel you're settling simply because of availability and the perceived savings, then beware. A used boat impluse buy based on excitement for a completely different boat seen at the boat show could end up being a disapointment.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do!

[Tim]

If charter companies use them they must have some robustness to them to deal with 40+ weeks a year of continuous use, right ?

One word. Depreciation. Use them up and then dump them. I don't really know if this is how it works in the boat charter world but that is how I would do it if I were in the charter business. Other industries seem to follow that model.

Good point about chartering one for a week. You could learn a lot about a boat in that week.

-Britton

Britton, the former economics student, is 100% correct here. The large charter fleets these days only use the boats for one to three years. Customers demand new, comfortable boats, not decrepit, beat-up hulks. Chartering is very hard on any boat, and the companies, over the years and as the popularity of chartering has grown, have apparently found that investment in new boats is more beneficial financially than maintaining an older fleet. As such, the companies only need a boat to hold together for a few years--which isn't asking much of any boat, frankly.

Charter fleets have very specific needs, both financial and practical. The boats must return on their investment, or the whole business goes bust. Obviously, the boats return big time, given the proliferation of charters everywhere.

It used to be that charter fleets would buy existing designs. Now, many designs exist purely for the charter business, showing the financial power of the industry.

[Tim]

...most charter boats have cut-down rigs...

I just re-read the specs in Mark's post above. With an I dimension of 46' on a 40' boat, I would say that this is a typical charter-sized rig.

[cliffg]

I chartered a boat with a similar layout in the BVI this past May. The holding tank for the head was under the starboard settee, the water tank under the forward v berth. That left the port settee for storage, which wasn't much. Overall, there was very little storage on the boat I was on. I'm not sure that was a function of the design or the design of the particular boat I was on.

Nonetheless, the boat you are looking at is beautiful, if only I could afford one!

Good luck and of course if you get one, post a lot of pics.

[Quetzalsailor]

I think you'll find that Beneteaux are manufactured in South Carolina. I'd be surprized that many are imported from France. They now own Jenneau but I do not know whether that line is built here. Check out: http://www.beneteauusa.com/about/1990.php

I think you can count on boats of foreign manufacture being shipped over, not sailed over. Who'd want a new boat with 3-4000 miles on it?

[Ric in Richmond]

Don't you feel like you are 8-10 feet in the air with any moderate heel on these super wide beam-aft boats?

[Mark.Wilme]

if only I could afford one!

I am not sure I can afford one either :)



We looked at the used Beneteau 393 yesterday, very surprised at it's condition for a 2 year old boat. 800 engine hours kind of says how much the boat has been used, ICW, Florida, Bahamas, Exumas and back. That's probably more use than a receational boat gets in 10 years.

The boat wasn't really in what I would call "wow the buyer" condition, lots of stuff everywhere, no attempt made to clean out lockers, bilge etc. Even the inventory was missing things (unused class B EPIRB, cell phone booster installed etc). Makes me thing of writing a book : 101 thinks to do to make your baot more "sale-able". If I could get the boat for $###k I think I could "flip the boat" just by a few weekends work to make it look presentable. Maybe there is a business opportunity there ?

Anyway, condition apart I didn't fall in love with the boat and with a sailboat I think you have to. The bow had massive freeboard and I wasn't expecting that. Also there were 2 dozen dings in the gelcoat and a couple of knocks in the aluminum toe rail - New England Boatworks have committed to fix them over the winter (included in the price) and I know the work they do is awesome, I have seen them color match gelcoat before and once it's buffed out you can't see the repair. Inside it was cavernous, like a small New York apartment, I can see why these things charter well.

I am going to look at a new Bene 393 at the Boston boat show next weekend as well as talk to the Jeanneau dealer - I may also take another look at the more traditionally style 39i (pics below) and see how I feel about that and whether the interior layout and the cockpit still do it for me.

Mark

[catamount]

The boat wasn't really in what I would call "wow the buyer" condition, lots of stuff everywhere, no attempt made to clean out lockers, bilge etc. Even the inventory was missing things (unused class B EPIRB, cell phone booster installed etc). Makes me thing of writing a book : 101 thinks to do to make your baot more "sale-able".

Same thing with the boat I bought. There was stuff all over the place when the broker took pictures for the yachtworld listing, and the inventory didn't begin to describe all the stuff that came with the boat. We loaded my van to the roof with all the sails, cushions, spares and other stuff that the seller had in his garage. The seller was definitely more interested in playing golf than in spending a day or two trying to make his boat more marketable.

Regards,