Head plumbing

[Figment]

I know, this is your FAVORITE topic, Tim. Try to contain your excitement. ;)

Aside from soliciting whatever general retrospective advice you might have omitted from your Glissando writeup, I have two specific issues;

1. Given the difficulty you experienced in getting that sanitary hose to take any tight radius, I'm thinking about approaching this stuff as flexy pipe rather than stiff hose... use 90 or 45 degree elbows to make turns instead of fighting the hose around corners.... this thought may just be the manifestation of the son-of-a-HVAC-contractor in me, so basically I'm just putting this out there to see who calls me crazy.

2. In the LaVac diagrams, they show a microvent filter (or something like that) in the waste tank's vent line. I don't think I saw any mention of it in your writeup. Did you use one? necessary or no? I also note that the lavac diagrams call for 1-1/2" vent hose, which seems excessive to me.

The head's still decorating the corner of my living room as it has since January. I'm just thinking ahead a bit.

[Tim]

Lessons learned:

1. Small cruising sailboats and their miniscule quantities of effluent discharge are hardly the scourge on clean water that the well-meaning but ill-conceived legislation dictating waste containment would have one believe.

2. That said, we're stuck with the laws. Enforcement surely varies regionally.

3. Holding tanks, no matter how good, how expensive, or how complex, are nasty entities. In the real world, our innocently-named "holding tanks" are called "septic tanks" and are buried deep within the ground. Why? BECAUSE THEY STINK, that's why. Duh. But on a small boat, according to the vast and omnipotent wisdom of government, we're supposed to conveniently store this stuff inches from our living, eating, and sleeping space.

4. If/when doing it all over again, I would look into using good ole' cheap (and odorproof) PVC pipe from the hardware store instead of the expensive, obstinant, and it-doesn't-matter-how-good-they-say-it-is-or-how-much-they-charge lousy, odor-permeating sanitation hose. I think it would be quite easy to install plumbing runs with a variety of PVC pipe and fittings, and all you need to do is install very short lengths of flexible hose at the connections to head, tanks, or seacocks--just enough to act as a shock absorber.

5. I will probably make this change myself in the nearer-rather-than-distant future. I've never been so unsatisfied with the performance of a product (expensive sanitation hose, that is) in my life.

6. Why cheap and effective PVC pipe (with flexible connections, of course) isn't a more commonly used approach to head plumbing is beyond me. Perhaps I'm missing something important. I don't think so.

7. I wish only that I had seriously considered using PVC from the getgo. Sometimes it's too easy to get caught up with convention.

8. Otherwise, my head setup works wonderfully.

9. Your idea about using PVC elbows (choose the long, gentle 90-degree elbows if possible) in conjunction with the "flexi-pipe" (hose) is sound, I think. Of course, that's not far off from just ditching it all and using all PVC in the first place. Give that some serious thought. All you need to do is obtain the proper number of PVC-hose coupling fittings.

10. I don't have a "microvent filter", or whatever, in my vent line. I don't actually know what that is. I don' tthink I ever consulted the Lavac manual when I installed the holding tank, which came a year after I installed the head itself. (I did consult the manual for the head installation, but ignored the holding tank part.)

11. I have yet to see a 1-1/2" vent line on any boat I've looked at. Perhaps a bigger vent is truly more effective at its job? But good luck finding a hull fitting to match.

12. Sorry for the rant. Mostly I'm annoyed because, despite best efforts, my boat still smells somewhat of the lovliness of hose permeation. It makes me a little angry when I think about it!

[The Good Goose]

Tim
I share your dislike of sanitation hose. I was able to get it to become more workable by boiling it. about two to three minutes and the stuff is alot more flexible. You have to be careful as it will crimp but is makes bends connections and other impossible situations manageable. I agree about pvc. I wish I had used more of it in my setup.

Brock Richardson

[Tim]

I came on a bit stronger than I really intended in my diatribe above, so please bear with me!

I was looking at the Lavac installation diagrams online and found the refererence to the Microvent. It doesn't explain exactly what it is, or where one might obtain one, but it looks like possibly it's a vent fitting and filter unit that mounts to the tank? And the filter is designed to "clean" the vented air? I'm not sure. If that's the case, I don't think I'd be too thrilled about it. The vent belongs overboard, I think.

Lavac Installation Notes

I would plan on venting the tank conventionally. The sanitation guru Peggy Hall recommends two vents--one forward and one aft--for best tank ventilation. I had two vent fittings installed in my new holding tank when I ordered it, but only installed one hose to start. Running the second vent line well aft, as Hall recommends, becomes fairly complex on a Triton, so I didn't bother with it right off the bat.

One other frustrating installation note regarding the sanitation hose: often, the 1-1/2" barbed hose nipples to which you are trying to connect the hose are slightly oversized, meaning the already stiff and awkward hose is even more difficult to install. Heating the hose definitely helps, though it's easy, as Brock mentioned, to induce kinks that seem to be irreversible.

I really would look hard at the possibility of PVC pipe for sanitation lines. Portions of the job might be a little more challenging in the conceptual stages, but actual installation would be a snap.

Good luck!

[Figment]

Honestly, I was leaning toward the mostly-PVC system already. I just didn't want to sound like a total nutjob. I can see where a series of rigid connections would have drawbacks on a planing-speed powerboat that's constantly slamming itself around, but on a displacement boat I think it makes perfect sense.

I would think that I'm also a good candidate for a PVC experiment because I have yet to reconstruct the bulkhead/cabinetry behind the head, so that area's wiiiiiide open with total access. Tim, you didn't bother to dismount this bulkhead when you did your installation, did you? You wrestled everything in place through those openings?

Microvent filter..... My father's boat is equipped with the electric pump lavac (yep, he's livin it up!), and a family joke is that whoever's out in the cockpit or swimming can instantly know when the head's been flushed because of the really potent shot of holding tank air released from the vent that's about midway up the portside. I'm guessing that he doesn't have the "microvent filter" installed (factory installation), but that's based on speculation that this filter is some sort of activated-charcoal affair designed to knock down the worst of the stench. Anyway, it looks like more dockside research is in order. I'll report back if I learn anything.

One lesson my father learned for me: Don't flush with seawater.
Though potable water is a precious resource onboard most boats, flushing with potable water made all the difference in the world on my dad's boat. I guess it's just that much less bacteria to contribute to the total stink level. He replaced his odor-permeated sanitation hose countless times on his former boat, then once when he bought the current boat five years ago, but then he switched to potable water, and hasn't had to replace the hose since.
However, in my opinion, what travels through the line is not as important as what's left sitting in the line, so to conserve water onboard I think one could do just as well by flushing with seawater all weekend/cruise long, and then flushing with clean water (maybe even with a splash of bleach) a few times to purge the line before letting the boat sit all week.
But since my father's around my boat about as often as I am, and I just don't want to debate it any more, I cut the head's intake thruhull and glassed it over. So, I won't have the chance to test my own theory.

[Dave, 397]

Next to the Iron Monster, the head is my least favorite part of the boat by far. I have worked far too often on far too many of both to personally want either ione on my own boat, but...

A friend of mine yanked the head out of his Vega and put in a really nice fitted bucket arrangement. Grown-up size oak seat, set up water and vapor tight and positively dogged down...two fewer holes in the bottom of the boat for less hassle and less drag...very nice. Of course, he lives aboard, and indeed he lives alone. No stink in the boat, though, not one whiff. He took to using holding tank chemical in it, and every third day he'd scuttle up the float in the dark of night and dump it down the men's toilet, hose it out, and back he went. One day I came home from work, which at the time was cleaning carpets (lucky cleaning techs also get to do all manner of de-stink-ify, de-mold-ify, suit up and de-sewer-damage or suit up and de-gorify crime and suicide scenes) to find my friend anxiously pacing next to DECISION, immediately addressing me as "oh hallowed master of chemicals, keeper of the magic van". Visions of Tom tripping with a full bucket in hand flashed thru my mind, followed by contemplation of how much extra hose I needed to go to the shop and grab and where we could move the boat close enough to the parking lot.
Nope. Tom just had let his bucket go a day too long, and boy did it ripen!
Lucky me, I only had to suit up and fog the boat with a microbe disinfectant followed by a liberal dose of "air neutralizer" which I liked to think of as "concentrated essence of urinal mint". Better to smell like the mint than the urinal! Tom got to be an orphan for two days until I could let him back into his own boat, but all was well. Now he goes to the housepainters for empty paintbuckets, and seals 'em before chucking 'em in the dumpster every few days. I think the bucket head works better at sea...for a guy...without two females aboard. Rules me out.

So much for reminiscing. Anyhow, I got the brilliant idea of using a wilcox bowl and making a new, Lavac-type base for it, then using this mondo 30 GPM Whale Gusher Deck Pump a friend was generous enough to give to me. 30 GPM! A "Whale" of a flush! Also an excellent belowdecks emergency pump...just enough room to mount it on the sole next to the head.

Trouble is, someone told me that the Gusher wouldn't work for some reason. I couldn't imagine why, as-let me say this one more time-we are talking about a Dual Diaphragm, 30 GPM (!) monster of a pump. I wrote to Lavac and told them how I was so poor I couln't even afford an engine<G> and how I had this idea, etc., etc. The fellow got back to me and was rather nice about it all, even told me how to make the vacuum break orifice part from Scotch Tape, but said that the internal configuration of the Gusher was not suitable for the purpose and that I would need one of their fine Henderson pumps. This is disheartening, as I think it is much easier to operate the high-volume, deck mounted whale with vigor for prolonged periods, and with more productive result as an emergency pump, which is half the reason I wanted to do the vacuum head!

Was the gentleman yanking my chain, or does he have a point? Anyone Know?

Thanks in advance for any advice on this,
Dave

[Figment]

I haven't got a disassembled Whale and Henderson here in front of me to give an informed comparison, but I do know from my work with laboratory equipment that it's more efficient to pull a vacuum with a smaller pump than a larger pump. (when labs need more vacuum capacity, they use pumps with multiple bellows, not one huge bellows). I think this is to do with the fact that the end X-percentage of the pumpstroke is lost to the closing of the valves and the flexibility of the diaphragm itself.... on larger pump, that x-percentage gets to be proportionally larger until you're just wasting energy.

so... yeah, it's possible that the whale is just too big for the job.

however, in your shoes, I fail to see what you have to lose by trying. if the Whale doesn't work sufficiently (it's not like it won't work at all), bite the bullet for the henderson then.

[artzat]

After a year of hand wringing, I have ripped out everything in the head compartment of my 1972 Bristol 34 and am forced to select a new sanitation system. Based on the good info I have read here, I am 99% sold on the Lavac with a manual pump and solid PVC plumbing. I'll have a very short run from the toilet to the tank, maybe 18 inches through a bulkhead, and I appreciate learning the PVC option before I installed that miserable hose.

Regarding the smelly tank vent, I was woindering if anyone had thoughts or experience with running the vent up the mast to a higher discharge point, maybe 15 feet. I happen to have existing half inch holes from some discarded wiring, so I could easily snake a small vent line, or perhaps enlarge the holes and beef up the lost metal with a plate. A small fan to constantly draw air through another vent into the tank also seems like a good idea, but I have never seen this in practice.

Any thoughts?

[Tim]

Your vent idea sounds interesting. I imagine similar things must have been done before, though I can't point to an example that I have seen.

Offhand, I can't think of an immediate problem, other than to ensure that you definitely get good airflow, however you run the vent. A fan would be great, but do you want something drawing power all the time? What it needs is a nice solar-powered vent fan. Why hasn't someone come up with this sort of thing for holding tanks, I wonder?

[dasein668]

There's not reason you couldn't cobble together a solar fan from parts picked up at your friendly local Radio Shack or similar. A fan small enough for this purpose shouldn't draw very much current, and a suitable solar cell would be small and inexpensive. Mount the cell somewhere out of the way, run a bit of wire, mount the fan and PRESTO instant solar-powered fan. Probably all for less than 20 bucks, as opposed to the 130 bucks for a stupid Nico Solar Vent fan....

[Dave, 397]

Meanwhile, my friend Tom excitedly told me yesterday how he'd found a terrific deal on a stainless steel (!) bucket for only 69.95! Awwww...why'd I have to go and get so civilized? Thanks for the input on the pumps--time will tell if I have a Whale of a flush!

[Tony]

For a solar powered fan, watch automotive places. I remember seeing solar powered fans designed to fit in a partially open car window to keep the car cooled down...I'd imagine this could be adapted, and if I remember correctly the price was around 30 bucks.

[Figment]

Because I spent a few hours today laying out pipe routes, deciding if pipe A jogs around pipe B, or vice versa... I'm following my usual pattern of DO-now-LEARN-later. I've just found this eye-popping writeup by Peggy Hall, debunking much of what I'd taken as fact.

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/phall.htm

Among other revelations, it turns out that there's a perfectly sensible reason for the 1-1/2" vent line.

Of course, it's not all good news. Much of what's reccommended sounds entirely unreasonable, if not impossible, to achieve on most boats.

oh, the reason I post in the first place..... she officially reccommends against the use of rigid pvc pipe. (this California Department of Boating and Waterways site says different http://dbw.ca.gov/install.htm)

eh, screw'er. I'm doing it anyway, if only to avoid the hassles of bending that hose.

[dasein668]

It seems to me that she is talking about going with exclusively rigid pipe. That makes sense. But if you are going to join sections with flexible hose couplers, then that should mitigate the stresses she is concerned about.

As for cracking, I suppose that could be a problem, but its not one that I would be worried about when storing the boat on the hard.

[Figment]

Brock, THANK YOU for the tip on boiling the hose. No amount of struggling was going to get that hose to fit onto the transition-to-pvc hose barb, which really is like 1-5/8" OD, but 30 seconds in the boiling hotpot got it on there like butter! Plus, squeezing the connection sorta "formed" the hose tight around the barbs (any other hockey players here? think mouthguard.) so really I think hoseclamping is purely cosmetic. I'm going to need a knife to undo these connections.

Next issue: I think I can mount my holding tank behind the head, which would really compact all the plumbing, and I could avoid passing hose through the main bulkhead into the vberth compartment. This means that the tank will be mounted with access ports on top, which means I'll need a "dip tube" for pumpout ability. A trip to west marine produced no such animal. Any tips for a source? Or is this something I need to cobble together from other off-the-shelf fittings?

[David]

If what Peggy proposes were true about needing plenty of fresh air venting, outhouses would be oderless. In fact, the proverbial cedar bucket wouldn't have to be emptied until it was full enough to shosh over. Human waste unfortunately has its own set of odors regardless of the bacteria that grows as it is stored.

I have successfully used a waste approved bladder tank, not vented, without Peggy's (or West's) chemical additives or odor masking for 8 years. No stink, no detection of any odor in the cabin at all. I do agree with her thoughts on proper flushing, which I think has a lot to do with it. I religiously pump the tank when i know it is close to being full; then flush with lots of water and pump again to ensure the tank is cleaned out.
Just my own experience here of course...
-David

[grampianman]

David,
I sail a Grampian 23 in SWFlorida, and I am trying to decide between the Porta Potti route and a fixed head with tank (using the plumbing piping as has been discussed on this forum) and would like to know the maker of the flexible tank you use. This sound like a better option than a fixed tank in a small boat. The fixed head option has been better received by the ladies than the Porta Potti option.
Cheers,
Ian

[David]

Ian,
I used a Nauta holding tank:

http://www.imtra.com/pumps/l_proddet.cf ... rand_id=20

I also use one as a second diesel fuel tank in the bilge. Both work really well. I use their water tank version for my fresh water tank (about 50 gallons).

Cheers,
David

[artzat]

Thanks to Tim's good reports, I have installed a Lavac manual head in my Bristol 34. I had gutted the entire head compartment, so I had lots of options in placing the pump and hoses. So far, so good. The simple toilet works as advertised, although some training is required for seasoned head-users. The vaccum pressure release is the main concern, as described furhter below.

I have rigged both sea water and fresh water flush water sources, with pressurized fresh used when available to soften the smell generation in the holding tank. I mostly day sail or overnight, so water supply isn't a problem for me. With the fresh water flush, we momentairly activate a ball valve to send a pint-quart of flush water into the open toilet. Pumpout is simple and fast, and doesn't require moving the seat. This is especially useful for a sitting occupant.

Sea water flushing requires closing the seat, always somewhat of a nusicance for the ladies. The fresh water option eliminates this step and also helps the holding tank smell problem. However, when we do use sea water by closing the seat, the strong vacuum requires 30 or more seconds to clear before the lid can be reopened and the remaining water pumped out. This is a nusicance, especially for a non-sailor guest with a queasy stomach who is anxious to get back into the cockipt. They must now wait for the vaccum to clear before emptying the bowl of flush water.

I am considering putting some sort of vaccul release into the toilet seat. Seems like a simple spring loaded, gasket selaed flap would do the trick to release the stroing vaccum right away. Any ideas out there for a simple gadget that will serve this purpose?

[dasein668]

I just removed a Nauta flexible bladder tank from my boat... Tim will attest that it was one of the foulest possible things you can imagine. I did not do the installation, but the arrangement was FAR from odorless. There was always an odor that permeated the bladder, and we found that it was virtually impossible to fully empty the bladder when pumping out. When I removed the tank on Friday it still had probably half a gallon of sludge...

The tank was installed with a vent.

Maybe a better installation might have worked better, but after my experience, I will never install a bladder tank for waste again.

Just wanted to post my experience. Dave, glad to hear that the setup is working well for you!

[windrose]

Read this thread with interest as I just took out the nasty smelly old hose for the head.... yuk! Removed the old head and installed a new sole in that area... now what to do? I'm not crazy about having a holding tank full of waste sloshing around, I've never been on a boat where the head did not stink. I am wondering about a composting head, anybody using one?
www.airheadtoilet.com

[Tim]

Everybody with every type of boat on every online forum or bulletin board seems to be talking about the Airhead--but I have yet to read about anyone who's actually used it, or who can offer real, practical knowledge about how well it works. I've never even seen one in person.

People seem to like the idea, but then initial cost and the overall size of the thing (they are very tall and quite bulky) seems to get in the way of anyone actually following through with the installation. But there sure has been a lot of conjecture about them!

[dasein668]

Mike,

I was wondering if you had any updates about your PVC plumbing installation. Pictures? Thoughts? Tips?

[Dave, 397]

Nathan---
My condolances on that bladder removal! Icky!
At least no one put a lovely and very custom sole down after installing the bladder and preventing it ever being removed in one piece!
This does indeed happen...
Dave

[dasein668]

Ugh... I'm eating breakfast as I read this... I feel a little woozy at the thought of that one!

Yes, the removal was especially nasty... ask Tim! But it's done! I'll definately be reinstalling a "sanitation system" but it'll be done MUCH better than the previous!

[Tim]

Yes, the removal was especially nasty... ask Tim!

Ummm...yes, it was! When Nathan first removed the bladder, I was in the shop (with the door near his boat open). It wasn't bad right then, though I could hear Nathan exclaiming out in his boat (maybe he did something a bit more off-color than "exclaim"). Since Nathan is frequently a pansy (hehe), I thought he was just being his intolerant self. But then I walked 100 feet to the house for something, and when I came back out about a minute later, the odor hit me like a ton of bricks--even over 100 feet away from the tank, with a breeze blowing and the whole barn between me and a direct line to Nathan's boat. Holy-Moly! If anything, Nathan didn't let on enough how nasty it was!

Then Nathan was kind enough to leave the nastiness in a plastic trash bag behind his boat for me to dispose...which of course I forgot the first week, so it sat for even longer. Mmmm...

hehe!

[dasein668]

Well come now, you didn't expect me to put it my CAR did you? hehe

Tim was a real gentleman to dispose of the... ahem... remains. Fortunately, his trash pick-up guys will take almost anything.

[Figment]

Nathan,

Mark the date and time. I officially have no thoughts, tips, or anything else to offer on the topic. Certainly no pics.

This whole issue of the head plumbing (and just about everything else boaty) has been on hold for the past months due to life's other pesky priorities. The plan hasn't changed... it's just that the execution hasn't happened so I haven't yet found the FLAWS in that plan.

[dasein668]

Bummer, man! I hate to be the guinea pig! Anything that I learn will, of course, get passed along...

[Figment]

Really, I dont expect a huge volume of surprises with respect to using PVC. The stuff has been in use long enough that its virtues and shortcomings are old hat by now.

My notion of building a custom holding tank and locating it up behind the head under the side deck, on the other hand.....

[tikvah59]

Just in case you want to see what an Airhead looks like in a Triton:



It's a little high - I'm about 6' tall and I have to lean over a little when sitting on it. I haven't actually installed it yet, so I'll have to get back to you on how it works.

On the shelf behind it is the little muffin fan they recommend you run all the time. I may experiment with running it just when I'm on the boat. Apparently one of the big reasons this system doesn't create the horrendous odors of conventional heads is that it keeps the liquid waste separate from the solid.

Time will tell.

[jeff maher]

Seen a few that had more hair.

[The Good Goose]

Mark

I can't wait to hear how it works. Thinking about installing a composting head got me interested in the subject. There is an interesting book on the subject called Humanure I got at the library and I can't remember the author. He reccomends using a handful of sawdust after each use to aid composting and adding carbon needed for the process to work properly. If you find odor a problem you might try the sawdust. I am really anxious to find out how this works out.

Brock Richardson

[tikvah59]

Brock,

I don't have all the details in front of me, but I know the Airhead came with peat moss to throw in with the solid waste and sugar for the urine. There were some specific instructions about how much and when, but nothing too complicated.

The references provided by the guy who builds these were very good, and he was great to deal with. I'll let you all know how things come out (pun intended, sorry!).

[Tim]

Mmm, breakfast anyone? Jeff, I could have lived without your imagery! hehe :<)

[Dave, 397]

Sugar? Peat Moss? Sawdust?

Where do you keep the cage for the periodically-emplaced dung beetles, and where do you intall the rat?

Sorry, just thinking about the actual function of the composting outhouses at some of the WA State Marine Parks here in the San Juans. They have fancy big signs and diagrams on the side telling you what each thing is and what it has done/is doing, but they don't mention those two vital components either! HeHe!

Lunch?

Dave
(Still going with a straight plumbed head and a bucket for discharge compliance.

And--get this--while they are so obsessed with our discharge, it is completely legal (as long as no one sees and complains 'public indecency', I suppose) to do your business straight over the side! Go figure.)

[Dave, 397]

Being the septic scofflaw that I am, I am really not up on these things anymore...but what about the old Lectra-San? Had milkshake-machine beaters in it that ran awhile and then they electrocuted the whole thing into theoretical sterility before it pumped out. Just wondering...with my solar, alternator-less situation I'd have enough for one flush a day if lucky, but for those with a hi-output alternator the current draw would not be too much. I'm guessing that they must be no longer OK or something...too bad, because we had one growing up (after the discharge laws started happening and something had to be done about those things which had been done and so on and so forth) and it didn't stink at all.

The other thing I wonder about, is the electric head. I know nothing really about these but apparently it incinerated the waste. When I was a mere youth the SES DISCOVERY (Sea Scout ship that I marginally belonged to) had an electric head in the officers' WC. Periodically one got elected, usually by ill behavior, to be "Admiral Ash" and empty the thing out...good practice for later when I got to play "Capt. Crapper", perhaps! :<)

Remember, it is not illegal to have an "open" head in the boat, just illegal to use it. The fine comes in if one admits to using it and if the seacockas are open. You can go to the friendly audio/music store and buy 'cable organizer kits' which iclude zip ties...colored red, even...which are re-usable vis-a-vis a little red tab that no one notices that releases them. Simple matter to back it off, slide it clear, operate the seacock and put it back. Write something fearsome and official sounding on the lid of the Mighty Wilcox or Righteous Raritan with a sharpie pen admonishing anyone looking that if they are here and not there, there, or there they must use the bucket. Put a biohazard sticker on your 5-gallon deck bucket with lid and use the sharpie pen to label it as exactly what it is (or what you purport it to be) and exactly when and where and how it must be used.

I should explain myself a bit further, here, lest anyone misunderstand me. Not only is the boat theoretically capable of operating outside of the discharge-limited zone, the boat is certainly capable of crossing an imaginary line in the water that seperates the San Juan Islands from the B.C. Gulf Islands. In Canada it is entirely legal and expected that it all goes over (or out) the side. Want a good laugh? Check out the glazed look of incomprehension from the marina dock lizard up there when you ask where the pumpout is! If that wasn't good enough, ask him where ALL of their untreated sewage goes, every day, every where. Three guesses, and three guesses where the prevailing currents bring it? Yep.

This also discounts any consideration of the cruise ships, ferries and military craft, non of whom hold onto their (considerably more voluminous) waste. Hey, I don't pump out ground up plastic and garbage, either! It is with satisfaction at my equality with the big ships that I read the paper and so on in the morning. A royal flush, I feel like a king!

That much said, I also do excercise a good amount of consideration. In a populated anchorage, I go ashore to do my major biz. in the outhouse and so on. I do remember as a kid where some of the anchorages smelled bad at peak season and smelled like an open septic tank (complete with visible evidence) at low tide during the same peak season. I just have to revolt against the idea that while it's OK for all these big vessels, while it's OK for the entire population of Vancouver Island, it's not OK for one fellow.

Oh...I have argued the bucket and the red tags with the friendly children from the USCG before...they left the boat in frustration and went on their way, never to bother me again. Make yourself a big enough pain in the kiester (sp?), but do it as nicely as you can to avoid some kind of citation...and they will never, ever want to THINK about boarding your vessel again. (Start by alleging that you are a Quaker and their sidearms can't come aboard, or similar...be real polite but make that part take 15 minutes or so. Then ask if they are wearing non-marking shoes and go from there. Be Nice so that they have to be nice back! LOL!)

Dave

[David]

It may fly in the NW, but in the Florida Keys that will just get you handcuffed and hauled off for a few nights at the county Hilton. Besides, down here it is usually not the coasties that inspect you, but some county mounty, or Florida Marine Partrol, or even lower on the food chain. Make a bigger stink (sorry) and they will impound your vessel. They insist on a padlocked seacock and full compliance. This action can be taken within sight of raw efluent being pumped into the same harbor. Let's not even mention the required Waste Management Plan...

David

[Dave, 397]

Wow.
Then again, Padlocks have keys, right?
This situation sounds like one that needs to be vociferously challenged in the courts. I'd like to personally plunk a porta-potty and a lidded bucket down on a judge's bench and ask him if he could see a real functional difference!
Dave

[Dave, 397]

OK, here's a question I thought I'd toss out.

Last weekend I was working on a stealthy culvert and sump-pump setup at a friend's office building (it goes out to a sprinkler head to water the nighboring property's bushes). Anyway, I ended up running this white flexible wire reinforced PVC--as in gluable--flex hose in one part of the assembly.

I don't know if this is or isn't a good bet for marine sanitation hose, but it seemed a bit thinner and more flexible--although still quite stout--than the marine stuff. Definitely less costly.

??????Anybody??????

Thanks,
Dave

[Figment]

The thread that wouldn't die.

Nathan, did you ever get into the PVC plumbing thing? I meant to ask when I was up at Tim's but it slipped my mind.

I did a short run yesterday, from the outlet on the LaVac to the inlet on the Y-valve. I have no pics at the moment, but it's really nothing complicated.

4" length of hose to mate LaVac to a PVC hosebarb-to-threads adapter.
PVC threads-to-pipe adapter.
45-degree elbow.
about 14" pipe.
45-degree elbow
pipe-to-threads
threads-to-hosebarb
3" hose to fitting on Y valve, mounted to aft bulkhead along with the Henderson pump.

It all went together quickly and easily, and appears to be thoroughly self-supporting. I negative-pressure tested it before connecting to the head itself by stopping the end of the hose with a tennis ball, and had to cut the ball to release the pressure after letting it hold the vacuum for 15 minutes. That's "good enough" in my book.

All of those elbows and transition pieces take up quite a bit of space, though, so I forsee some creative solutions when I go to do the holding tank. Also, I cannot imagine doing all of this with that cabinetry in the way. I think it would be far less effort to cut away that panel and rebuild it afterward.

Question for Fellow LaVac-ers.... what did you find was the best route for your fresh water intake?
At the moment I'm thinking of going through the main bulkhead under the vberth, then forward under the vberth and somehow snaking the hose over the tank itself and then down aft of the tank to get into the bilge to tap into the galley's feed hose. But that seems overly complicated. One of you guys must have a more elegant solution.

[dasein668]

No, I haven't gotten involved in that yet. I did find a friend locally who has plumbed both of his Swans this way though, so he could be a good resource if I DO run into any issues.

But as you say, it seems pretty straight ahead. Were you able to get the PVC hose to pipe fittings at the local home center or similar, or did you have to hunt them down from a big time plumbing supplier?

[Figment]

I got the hose-to-thread fittings at a local hardware store, but I guess I should say that this particular place is known as the local "they have it when no one else does" place. Really, I think I just got lucky. I might never have cobbled together these pieces on my own. There happened to be a plumbing-savvy guy on duty at the time, and when I described the round-peg-in-square-hole problem, he kinda got the bit between his teeth and scrambled through the bins in 3 different aisles until he came up with a solution.

I wouldn't waste my time at a HD for something like this. A plumbing supply house would be a good approach, but I think you'd need to pick your moment carefully so that they weren't too busy to help you, but weren't so slow that the knowlegeable people were off the floor.

I'll try to get a photo of the pieces this weekend so you can at least have some mental image of what you're after when you go off a-hunting.

[Tim]

Were you able to get the PVC hose to pipe fittings at the local home center or similar, or did you have to hunt them down from a big time plumbing supplier?

Locally, I'd try Maine Hardware or Portland Plastic Pipe for those fittings...if I were looking.

[dasein668]

Mike, thanks for the info. I think I know what the parts are, but of course pics are always appreciated!

Tim, Yes, Peter got his parts from PPP.

[Tim Mertinooke]

The thread that wouldn't die.

I just installed a new toilet and re-installed the holding tank after a terrible twenty minute cleaning session. Despite cleaning the whole area (hoses, holding tank, fittings, etc.) using a multitude of cleaning agents there is still "that smell" going on. The hoses are the high quality sanitation hose except for the vent which I plan to replace, and they are less than ten years old. I'll have to live with it for this season, but reading this thread today about the possible use of PVC rigid pipe has intrigued me. Who has done it and where are the photos? Fortunately I have a decent amount of space to work with so I see this as a viable option. I am already making next winter's project list during this winter, how about that?

Some pictures of the setup I inherited...

The virgin toilet


Access behind the toilet


This is the main salon underneath the starboard settee.

[Ceasar Choppy]

I'll bet its coming from your vent hose... has your tank been full or overfull? I've recently had this problem. Also, check hose connections at the tank and all the way down the line. Is that a vented loop venting into the cabin I see???? It only takes a little bit.

Re the PVC... don't need no steeeenkin pictures... its pretty self explanitory. The only thing you need to do though is get the fancy PVC/hose adaptors from Sealand. They fit easily into PVC sockets with the glue and the expensive hose fits easily over the male end (no barbs).

[bcooke]

Is that a vented loop venting into the cabin I see????

Ummm... where else can a vented loop vent into?

One thing I was going to try since I also have a vented loop in my plumbing 'closet' is a hose stuck over the end of the vent fitting and run to a thru cabin fitting. I am not sure how effective it will be but I am hoping it will offer some improvement. The only other option being to forego the loop which I know some subscribe to but in my often clouded mind I know I would forget to shut the necessary valves that prevent any siphon action.

As far as PVC, it was my intention to use it almost exclusively. After some consultations with the design engineer I found that the necessary pipe-to-hose fittings and often tight confines and need for odd curves limited my use of PVC to a few longer and relatively straight sections. It was a good thought though.

-Britton

[Peter]

As far as PVC, it was my intention to use it almost exclusively. After some consultations with the design engineer I found that the necessary pipe-to-hose fittings and often tight confines and need for odd curves limited my use of PVC to a few longer and relatively straight sections.

Re-Pete from an earlier post may be of help:

PVC pipe ... great stuff. Just make sure to use the Schedule 40 stuff as it is a LOT tougher than the Class 200, which is used in underground sprinkler systems.

I found this on the net: a flexible Schedule 40 PVC pipe.
http://www.plumbingproducts.com/spaflex.html

I don't know how flexible it is, but certainly worth checking out!

[Hirilondë]

As far as PVC, it was my intention to use it almost exclusively. After some consultations with the design engineer I found that the necessary pipe-to-hose fittings and often tight confines and need for odd curves limited my use of PVC to a few longer and relatively straight sections. It was a good thought though.

-Britton

Hmm, I found just the opposite. When in tight quarters a combination of PVC elbows of varying angles often glued a bit askew gave me clean tight curves that no hose could bend to without pinching.