Dutchman

[windrose]

Anybody tried a dutchman on the mainsail? Pros/cons. Thx. Ang

[Jason K]

No, I haven't tried them. I suppose they're an improvement over a lazy jack system. It appears it flakes easier and looks cleaner. I cut the lazy jacks off of my boast because I thought they looked awful and I really don't mind flaking the main. (I'm also going to be removing the existing reefing system when I reinstall deck hardware in an effort to minimize the number of lines I have running aft.)

One thing that would make me nervous about the Dutchman system is that it requires modifying the sail. I'd prefer to keep the holes in the main to a minimum.

However, if you do a lot of single-handing I suppose it isn't a bad way to go.

[Rachel]

Windrose I forget - do you have a full-batten main?

I just wanted to mention that a boat I did quite a bit of sailing on had a full-batten main and (retractable) lazy jacks, and, although I had my own issues with the lazy jacks, the main would come down really well, with the battens settling down one after the other like a nice, obedient venetian blind.

Pardon me if you've already got that system and are looking to replace it; I realize I'm not exactly answering with the information you were asking for but I thought this might give you some further ideas.

--- Rachel

[Tim]

I think that expecting any mainsail to come down and fold itself appropriately is unrealistic. No matter what sort of mainsail control system one uses, there will always be a need for some flaking once the sail is down.

Lazy jacks exist only to hold the sail and control it on top of the boom; to properly stow the sail requires full flaking, just as it would be without.

The Dutchman is supposed to ensure that the sail accordians itself on alternate sides as it comes down, but in practice it rarely works that way. That said, it is an effective way to control the sail, as long as you have (and want to keep) a topping lift and as long as you don't mind having those lines and holes running through your sail. You also need a modified or specially-built sailcover to accommodate the lines.

I've seen plenty of Dutchman systems around. They are pretty unubtrusive and people seem to like them. I abhor topping lifts, so I would never choose this particular system, but that's just my own way. Other than that, Dutchman systems are generally effective and not overly complex, but I think a well-designed set of lazy jacks makes more sense overall.

As many of you now know, I became a dedicated convert to lazy jacks this year, after many years of convincing myself that they were stupid. Boy was I wrong!

I think the lazyjack system needs to be well designed to fit one's own needs, though. I sure like my retractable jacks, but they may not be for everybody. All I need them to do is catch the sail as it comes down to prevent it from spilling all over the place, which is a pain. Or, more accurately, let's just say that it's way nicer to have the main stay contained than it is to have it spill all over the deck.

Later, after mooring or anchoring or whatever, I release the jacks and flake the sail normally. But that initial control when dropping the sail sure is nice, whether alone or with a crew. I like the retractable lazy jacks because they don't get in the way when raising the sail, and they don't require that the sailcover be full of holes or flaps or what have you.

[FloatingMoneyPit]

I'll advise against the dutchman.
Pros:
It does look cleaner and means few lines dangling from the mast
It does not (always) require modifications to the sailcover
It works okay for a newer main

Cons:
Topping lift business is a pain
Loses utility as the main softens with age
Plastic fishing line running through your sails
Topping lift business is a pain!

In all fairness, I've never used lazy jacks and have used the dutchman on only one boat, my father's. I'm 6' tall and have to tip-toe on the coaming to work the flaking lines up and down the topping lift. I shudder to think of my 70-yr-old pops doing this in a seaway. Maybe it can be set up so the flaking lines stay in place and you never have to mess with the topping lift mechanism, in which case I'd be a fan. But that would at the very least require sailcover modifications. And yes, you do still have to spend time gathering & flaking the main when all is said and done.

[windrose]

Don't have any means of catching the main presently. Because of the bolt rope luff you can't put on a stop so the sail comes down out of the slot all over the deck and often into the water. :-(

Going to haul early, probably in a month or so, and spend some of the cooler weather improving her systems before tucking her away for the winter.

I had planned to add lazyjacks using the slots on the mast where the running backstays were attached just above the spreader. My Pop keeps pushing me towards the Dutchman because he likes it. However, I can do lazy jacks and several more upgrades for the cost of the Dutchman.

Thanks for the input. Ang

[A30_John]

My boat came with a Dutchman system already installed. I had no preconceived notions about it - pro or con when I started sailing with it this season.

My experience with the system has been overwhelmingly positive. Once it's set up and the topping lift is adjusted, it's basically a "set and forget" system. The only time I need to adjust the topping lift is when I put in the second reef. I'm not sure what FloatingMoneyPit is talking about when he says he needs to "work the flaking lines up and down the topping lift." On my boat the flaking lines are fixed to the topping lift and aren't adjusted in a seaway.

I guess I prefer fishing line through my sails to pot warp flogging around my mast and sails. No need to retract the fishing line once the sail is up. So far, zero chafe caused by the fishing line. Negligible windage caused by the fishing line.

My boat already came with a sail cover which was modified for the Dutchman system. I don't see why this is such a big deal. It requires two slits to be added to the sail cover, so what. Considering the projects that the average reader of this board undertakes, a mainsail cover modification seems within the realm of possibility.

When lowering the sail in calm conditions, the sail flakes just like a venetian blind, plop, plop, plop, and it's down, beautifully flaked. In windy conditions the sail is contained by the flaking lines and it requires some sorting out after the sail is down. When the !@!? hits the fan, I can drop the main while the boom is over the water and the sail is contained on top of the boom.

Windrose, as somewhat a lone voice out here, I do recommend the Dutchman system. I've used it under a wide variety of conditions, and the more I use it the more I appreciate it. For other opinions, I suggest you talk to a sailmaker who is experienced with the Dutchman system. I have yet to meet one who understands the system who doesn't endorse it. You'll find that the issue of putting holes in the sail for flaking lines is a non-event. It's an elegant, functional system that I would add to any future boat I own.

However, in your case, I think you'll initially get more bang for your buck by replacing the boltrope system on your main. I had one on my last boat and it was a fight every time I raised and lowered the sail. There might be some redemption for the boltrope on a racing boat and that's just fine when you've got two or three people to handle it. But I'd add cars or slides or something to that main before considering a containment/flaking system.

Good luck.

[windrose]

Thanks John. Tim had already suggested adding slides and a stop and that is the first thing I plan on doing. In the Dutchman reading material they talk of the importance of having everything adjusted properly. It seems somewhat complicated from the description.... your thoughts? I realize yours was already set up but do you have any idea of what the sail makers modifications to the sail might cost.

What do you feel is the greatest asset of the system.... the things that appeal to me are no chafe and not having to retract the system each time.

Still seems a little pricey to me, do you feel the system is that much better than lazy jacks?

Thanks. Ang

[Tim]

Windrose,

It's a simple matter to add slugs to your existing mainsail luff. This is a must for any cruiser. It's a job you could do yourself if so inclined, or would be an inexpensive and easy job for your favorite sailmaker. Then all you need is a commonly-available track stop to hold the slugs in the groove.

You definitely need the slugs in order to take advantage of any of the available containment systems. John is correct in that people, probably including me, have been making too big a deal out of some of the very small issues that may arise with a Dutchman. I just personally have a "thing" against topping lifts and noncontinuous mainsail covers, which is the only reason I mentioned it in a previous post. So I'm weird, but you all knew that already.

[FloatingMoneyPit]

John - glad to hear it actually does work well with the right setup. I should have added the caveat that my father's boat (sabre 28) has what I suspected was a strange setup. The 2 lines are attached to a separate line that runs through fittings on the topping lift. This allows the two lines to move up and down the topping lift. I suspect this was only done so the lines could be moved down after flaking the sail, leaving enough slack to hang through the bottom of the sailcover. The boom is high on this boat and this "adjustable" line is not easy to adjust, making it a royal PITA.

If this "adjustable" setup was done only to avoid modifying the sailcover, that would be quite asinine. Even I could sew a flap in a sailcover. I'm sure there's a better reason the P.O. and his sailmaker did it this way.

That said, if you set it up with the lines permanently in one place, it does seem pretty handy. I guess it comes down to economics. I may experiment with lazy jacks next season on my own boat, but like John, I'd rather not have more lines to tangle with.
John, any idea of the strength of the "fishing" line in the dutchman? Characteristics of small lazy jack lines vs. the nylon(?) dutchman line would be another pre-purchase consideration. not sure if one fares better than the other in the long run.

[Jason K]

Because of the bolt rope luff you can't put on a stop so the sail comes down out of the slot all over the deck and often into the water

Forgive my ignorance, but why not? We rigged a very simple stop on the Jeanneau by drilling a small hole next to the slot and hanging a pin an a very thin line. It's not perfect, but it does work. We don't have a rope luff, but I can't see how having one would create much more of a problem.

Plus, don't you do a bit of single-handing?

[Rachel]

Say, maybe I was a bit too happy sounding about the full-battened main with lazy jacks dropping down like "an obedient venetian blind." I guess I just meant to say that if you do have a full-battened main, the battens seem to help the sail settle into the lazy jacks. But you do still have to clean it up a bit for a nice furl - that's later on though, when things are under control :-)

Just thought I should clarify a bit.

--- Rachel

PS I agree -- I can't imagine cruising with a boltroped main, just going by what it was like on a friend's Pearson 26 that had been set up for racing.

[A30_John]

What do you feel is the greatest asset of the system.... the things that appeal to me are no chafe and not having to retract the system each time.

Those are two of the key benefits. The greatest asset of the system for me personally is it can be blowing like hell and I can lower the main with the boom in virtually any position without worrying about where the sail will end up. That's important to me as a singlehander.

Still seems a little pricey to me, do you feel the system is that much better than lazy jacks?

Without doing a direct comparison, I can't say whether the system is better than lazy jacks or not. I think Practical Sailor did some comparisons. It probably comes down to one's own preference. I really like the Dutchman system, I'll keep it, and I'd install it on a future boat without hesitation. It sounds like others wouldn't like it because of the topping lift issue. I don't know what the sail mods would cost you, but I can't imagine it to be terribly expensive. But then again, you never know, nothing is cheap on boats! I believe the previous owner of my boat had the system included in the new main when he had it made, and no doubt the cost was minimal given the price of the new sail.

Here's some cost estimates that I found on the web, perhaps they will help. These guys charge $40 for the sail cover modification.

http://www.sailchoice.com/dutchman.html

The 2 lines are attached to a separate line that runs through fittings on the topping lift. This allows the two lines to move up and down the topping lift. I suspect this was only done so the lines could be moved down after flaking the sail, leaving enough slack to hang through the bottom of the sailcover.

This is very different than my setup. I simply have an ordinary topping lift with the two flaking lines fixed to it in the appropriate place. I'd like to know the rationale for setting it up that way. I would not want the lines hanging down under my sailcover. I like to keep them adjusted and ready to go. Remember, on my boat once the topping lift has been set correctly it doesn't need to be touched until the second reef goes in the main. This means in practice I rarely adjust the topping lift. I guess if one really wanted the lines to come out under the sailcover, it's a simple matter of lashing the boom to the back stay and then lowering the topping lift, thus allowing the lines to slacken. But why do that everytime? In my experience the modified sail cover is such a minor thing that I can't understand the hesitation to use one.

John, any idea of the strength of the "fishing" line in the dutchman?

This has been engineered by the developer of the system to meet the requirements of the application, and in my experience it has been plenty strong. I'm more worried about the sail flogging itself to death than the flaking lines. For me, the worst case scenario if a line breaks is I find myself flaking the sail by hand. The manufacturer recommends replacement of the nylon line at regular intervals due to the possiblity of UV weakening, but I understand the cost is minimal. I might do that next Spring.

I hope this helps in making a decision. Let us know what you decide on.

[A30_John]

We don't have a rope luff, but I can't see how having one would create much more of a problem.

One of the biggest problems for me was getting the !@?!! thing to feed properly when raising the sail.

[windrose]

Thanks all, yes the slides are a given.... I simply have been using what I have for this season to get to know the boat and figure things out.

The luff has to come out of the track because there is no room in the track for slack in the luff (what would generally bunch to either side between each slide as the sail falls and the slides stack).

I used two of the small cans of nylon spray on the track before I stepped the mast, yet the sail/track are still very stiff in both directions..... and yes, the luff has to be fed while the sail is being raised. :-(

Think I will call a couple of the sail makers dutchman endorses in my area just to get a better idea of what it would cost, etc.

[CharlieJ]

Tim - why are you so down on topping lifts? Personally, I consider a topping lift on a cruising boat as necessary as the main halyard. If for nothing else than it keeps the boom off your head when you drop sail.

By the way, our main sail on Tehani is totally battenless. I've had battenless sails on every full out cruising boat I've ever had- love the sail that way. Of course it has to be cut for being battenless from the design stage but we are sold on no battens.

[A30_John]

Why are you sold on a battenless mains? What are the advantages of a battenless main over say, a fully battened main?

What are the differences in the way battenless mains are cut?

[Tim]

Tim - why are you so down on topping lifts? Personally, I consider a topping lift on a cruising boat as necessary as the main halyard. If for nothing else than it keeps the boom off your head when you drop sail.

I have a Garhauer rigid boom vang that supports the boom during these maneuvers, so I can eliminate the topping lift.

Lacking a rigid vang to hold up the boom, I would completely agree that the topping lift is required. But the vang is so nice in terms of sail trim and shaping, with the added benefit of eliminating the topping lift.

[Figment]

Battenless sails will need a bit of hollow in the leech ("negative roach", I've recently heard it phrased) in order to be stable in a breeze.

I agree, partial-length battens are a pain particularly if they run perpendicular to the leech and therefore create a hassle when it's time to flake and stow the main. Here in the land of not-so-much wind, however, I won't be without them. I need every little bit of roach I can get.

Full-batten mainsails are way cool, but OY that price tag is just wicked!

[Rachel]

I'm not Charlie, but heck, I'll pipe in on the fully-battened main and why I didn't like it out cruising.

First there is the added expense of the sail itself and the batt-cars (or whatever their generic name is - the things that replace the sail slugs).

Second (and maybe more important?), is that, for me at least, there were just so many times that the battens were either a nuisance or downright problematic when handling sail in adverse conditions. Sometimes we'd want to raise/douse the sail when not heading *exactly* into the wind (for one reason or another) - or the boat would shift around a bit - and then those battens would get hung up like nobody's business on the after shrouds and/or our higher, seagoing lifelines. Scary sometimes when you really want to get the sail down (or back up).

It was also harder to reef/unreef (unless dead into the wind, but why always have to do that?) because the battens seemed to put leverage on the batt-cars that caused more friction and made it more difficult to raise/lower the main.

Then if you want a complete spares inventory, you've got to invest in batt-car(s), and also stow a really long batten.

We also had to have the batten pockets repaired due to chafe (some came along from previous owner, so not sure how careful they were).

Now, all that being said, I realize everyone in the world is not going cruising/bluewater sailing, so this may not apply. Also, I didn't set up the fully-battened main on the boat I'm describing, so it's possible that everything was not designed/implemented in the best way. I also started out with some pre-conceived negative ideas about it, I'll admit. However, the boat's owner, who was very gung-ho about the sail to start with, said (after 10,000 miles) "Never again on a cruising boat."

Maybe only one cent worth, but there you have it...

--- Rachel

[A30_John]

Good info, thanks. My boat came with a fully battened main, and, while I haven't experienced the problems Rachel described (yet), I can certainly see the potential for them. I seem to get into my fair share of heavy weather, and I do worry about those batten cars breaking.

This is my first boat with a fully battened main. It seems that the full battens do a marvelous job of shaping the sail, and I was very pleasantly surprised at the performance of my boat in light airs. I'm assuming this result is due in part to the full roach on the sail made possible by the full length battens. (The leech overlaps the back stay by a few inches.)

However, the flip side to this is excessive weather helm and the need to reef very early (I start thinking about reefing at 13 knots, and will definitely be reefing at 15. I start thinking seriously about the second reef at 20 knots). I'd rather delay reefing since I have many days of sailing when the wind is variable between 10-15 knots. I also notice that I'm usually one of the only boats reefed in these conditions. It's kind of like being stuck between third and fourth gear.

The A30 is a tender boat at the outset, and I'm thinking the main is a bit on the radical side with that full roach. Another A30 owner had the same problem with his similarly sized fully battened main and had a sailmaker cut 6" off the leech. He reported this eliminated the weather helm and settled the boat right down. I'm thinking about doing this to my main, even though the prospect of losing that remarkable light air performance breaks my heart. If anyone has any comments on this idea I'd sure appreciate hearing them!

In addition, I'm planning some blue water cruising in a few years and I'll be buying a spare main. My thought is to replace the fully battened main with a battenless main for offshore sailing and keep the current sail as a back up. Any comments or suggestions on this idea would also be appreciated.

[dasein668]

I love my full batten sail. I haven't had any problems with the battens dealing with reefing in winds up to about 25-30 knots. Since I pretty much exclusively do coastal cruising it's pretty unusual that I find myself out in much more than that (read: never).

As for the battens catching on things when the boat is off the wind, I haven't had much problem there either, but I can see where someone might. Normally, though, I'm by myself and so I let the sheet run out and when I leave the tiller the boat naturally tries to turn up anyway.

As for weather helm, I can't tell any difference between my new full batten main (with a substantial full roach) and my old main sail with partial battens and a slightly hollow roach. I know that in theory this should make a difference, but I think that in practice, these older boats with such large (relatively speaking) mains will tend to have more weather helm than a modern boat with a smaller main.

That's my 2cents. I wouldn't trade my full batten main for the world having sailed the boat with both types of sails. For me the plusses definitely outweight the minusses.

[Tim]

For coastal (i.e. fair weather) sailing, full battens are awfully nice, to be sure. The sail shape in all conditions and points of sail is unparalleled. It's nice to support a large roach, but there's no hard and fast rule that a full battened sail needs an oversized roach. The full battens still have a benefit with a regular-sized roach, so reducing the size of the roach is certainly feasible if one thought that it was inducing too much weather helm.

That said, over the years I've read and absorbed a lot of information about the problems with battens of any kind, particularly during extended cruising. The chafe problems are real and well-documented, making a sound argument for eliminating them entirely, and the abilty to easily raise or lower sail on any point of sail seems a plus as well.

I have often thought that it might make sense to have a hollow roach, battenless main for long passages, were one to be doing such things, and then have the excellent full-battened sail for coastal sailing once the destination is reached. The best of both worlds, perhaps? I think that the low aspect, large-main CCA-type boats might be good candidates for a hollow roach, battenless main, as the main is generally large enough to absorb the reduced sail area.

One of the initially unseen benefits of a full batten main is that they are quiet and slat-free when the sail is raised while powering. Say what you will about powering, but around here it's a fact of life on many days. Powering with the main up is steadying and makes sense for many reasons, but a normally-battened sail cannot maintain its shape when raised in these conditions, and would tend to slat or rattle back and forth, particularly if powering directly into a light breeze. The full battened sail eliminates this irritation--not a major reason to go with one, perhaps, but a nice added benefit nonetheless.

The reason, by the way, that full batten mains are tougher to raise or douse or reef when off the wind is that the battens are under tension and push towards the mast track, and at an oblique angle when the sail is let out. This tension tends to bind the slides, thereby causing the potential difficulty.

One solution to this that helps is to add one of the excellent aftermarket sail tracks, such as the Strong track. The low friction of these systems aids greatly in the movability of the slides under these conditions.

One thing I have to say that I hate about my own setup is that in super light winds (2-4 knots, say), the upper batten on my large-roached main gets hung up on the backstay when tacking, and will often take some work to get by and invert. Otherwise, for the sort of sailing I do now, I wouldn't trade it. Performance and shape are unquestionably better. I might feel differently if I were voyaging, though.

[CharlieJ]

We figure we lost roughly 7 sq feet of sail area going to the battenless main.

Laura and I intend to be sailing offshore frequently, for at least short trips, like overnights, etc. I had the sails made from Contender Super Cruise, 6.5 oz, all seams triple stitched. The Main has three rows of reef point, the working jib has one.

The Meridian has a wooden mast with external track so the sail comes down like a rock when the halyard is let go. Goes up quite easily also. My wife Laura is 5'2 and about 105 pounds and she hoists the main with no winch assist (we use a down haul to tension the luff)

For us, with our planned usage, it works quite well.

Tim's point about the full battens being quiet when the sail is hoisted and you are powering is a very good one by the way. But here on the Texas coast we so seldom have to motor sail it just doesn't come into play. Yeah Rachel, I know - we had nothing the day you sailed with us, but the rest of the week had 12- 15 *grin*

[Rachel]

Sometimes outfitting a boat feels like setting up for years of golfing - on any number of different courses - but with the catch that you can only take one or two clubs! Of course that means you have to choose which two, meaning that you have to know exactly what types of courses you plan to play on, what the conditions will be, etc.

All before you've actually gone golfing - or seen the course anyway - in many cases :-) (Say if you're outfitting a particular boat you haven't had a chance to sail much yet, or you're undecided about future plans...)

That's why I so value this type of thread - you get so much information, coming from all sides of a given problem or situation.

--- R.

PS Charlie - I guess that lack of wind was just the exception that proves the rule, eh? ;-)

[A30_John]

Nicely put, Rachel.

I'm going to seriously consider a battenless main for offshore work when the time comes.

In the meantime, it sounds like a coin toss as to taking some of the roach off my current main. I might keep it the way it is a little longer because once the deed is done... well, it's done!

Thanks everyone for all the insights.

[Bob L]

If anybody is paying attention to this tread anymore I have three words:
Schaeffer Boom Furling.

I think you can buy it through Lackey Sailing (Tim) at 5% over cost. That's item number one on my next boat. I thought that the Dutchman system was supposed to be the perfect thing, but after I sailed from St. Maartin to Ft. Lauderdale with a dutchman rigged main, I was unimpressed.

[A30_John]

I thought that the Dutchman system was supposed to be the perfect thing, but after I sailed from St. Maartin to Ft. Lauderdale with a dutchman rigged main, I was unimpressed.

Why? What did it or didn't it do for you?

[Bob L]

Well, I've always have been unsatisfied with mainsail flaking. The Beth Leonard article on Sailnet let me to believe that it was the be all/end all system. The main on the 60' ketch we sailed from St. Maartin was heavy, but because it was a ketch, I assume it was the same size as the main on a 40' ft cutter or sloop. Dropping the main wasn't easy. The Dutchman lines were overpowered by the weight of the sail. It was cumbersome and awkward. The boat was also had lazyjacks, and they seemed to be doing all of the work. Were the lines adjusted properly? It was my first time with the system, so I'm no expert, but the captain (with much more experience than I) seemed to be doing everything correctly. I haven't used a roller boom yet, but it just seems like it would be less cumbersome since you can maintain upward tension on the sail while rolling it up. Two cents doesn't go a long way nowadays, but that's mine.

[Ric in Richmond]

I have the weirdest system.

Zip Stop.

Loose footed. No battens.

Main stays in its own bag along the mast. It gets there when a pair of zippers "flake" the main into bags formed by two panels along the luff.

A hood slides down along the zippers (pulled by a set of ropes) and gathers the sail. WHen you go to unfurl you pull the same ropes and the hood slides up the zippers and you pull the outhaul.

Takes mere moments.

Has lots of windage when furled. Seems to leave slides and main "bag" exposed to lots of UV.

You reef as normal, but to furl you have to unreef. Could lead to ugly moments trying to raise the main in a blow before putting it away. Suppose you could lower it and flake it normally.

With Roller furl and zip stop main sails are away in less than 3-5 minutes.

No idea how long the zippers will last. Came on the boat when I bought it.

Works for me!!

Ric

[Jason K]

Either I've coincidentally seen a number of those recently or they're getting more popular. I was curious how effective they are and what effect they had on sail shape and airflow. Ric, your the first I've heard speak of it and it sounds pretty neat.

[Ric in Richmond]

I've got some pics at work I can stick on line.

So far I have only tried it in light air and it works like a charm.


Almost feels like cheating.

Ric

[Zen]

Hello
I am new here and late for this dicussion.

But my 2 cent for anyone who cares in the future...

I have a Dutchman system on my boat, it came with it. I single hand most time, it has been easy and helpful. I am not sure of all the pro and cons. However I like it so far. Not only does the sail come down and reasonably flake well. I do not have sail getting in my way trying to get into the marina singlehanded. I have also have multi-reef ability simple and fast.
I had a new cover made for the sail which cost me about 50 more than a regular cover.
THe one con I have found is that I can not put a tarp over the whole boom when in my slip, so I just do the cockpit area.

[Tom Young]

I still have some life left in my roller furling mainsail on our Alden Challenger. With a foot of around 18' and over 300 feet of sail area, it's a bear to deal with.

Looking to the future, handling this main will be the best improvement to the boat for sailing I could make.

I'd almost convinced myself the Dutchmen system would be the best until I read your con. We use a long cockpit bimini alot and the Dutchmen causes a problem I hadn't thought of. Our bimini lays accross the boom far forward of the dodger/companionway and back to the mizzen. I'm not sure this could be reconfigured to go under the boom, I suspect it will be too low. Hmmm....

This will take some thought. In the mean time, anyone have a recomendation for a simple removable lazy jack system. I may put something together for the upcoming season. With this sail and the simple robust (but alittle slow) roller reefing boom, the lazy jacks have to move forward of course. A light and simple system. My spar and boom are spruce. Any ideas welcome. Thanks.

[Tim]

Check out my lazy jack system:

Retractable Lazy Jacks

Also check out another thread here on this forum that contains additional pictures and description of this system; the page above lacks photos of the completed system in use.

http://www.triton381.com/forum/viewtopi ... lazy+jacks

[Tom Young]

and it is much harder to describe than it would be to do.

I could see this working on my boat. The small straps on the boom for the snap hooks wouldn't interfere with the roller furling main set up I have now, their slight protrusion and smooth edges wouldn't harm the sail.

I get the continuous line idea and think that may work well. I would leave it deployed until I put the strops around the flaked main, that would make life much easier.


I'm not familar with lazy jacks, is there a simple way I add more legs from the boom for a long foot like my mainsail? I guess I would need to rig three legs to the boom as a minimum. How do you think I could handle this, simply add one more tier below your set up? This means I replace your two lower snap hooks with blocks and run a lower line-snap hook-through block-to middle snap hook-through aft block-to 3rd aft shap hook.

This may sound like too much stuff going on to some but I think it may be worth the added time, you have to drop this main in a harbor and furl it by yourself to appreciate what I'm saying.

I'll look at the manufactures ideas, I can't see spending the money for them though as it's experimental at this point and I can likely better suit this unusual boom. Any ideas on line size?

[Tim]

1/4" line will work fine for just about any boat in a "normal" size range. I can't see why you'd need anything larger than that.

As to adding legs, it would be easy to split the sides into as many legs as you wish. All you need to do is add additional hooks and blocks. The use of the small turning blocks ensures that the legs will always have equal, and constant, attention.

For example, imagine taking the two legs as shown on my lazy jacks and splitting each half of each leg into two. That would give you four legs, which is probably adequate. Or you could just split one of the legs, which would give you three total--probably good for an 18' boom.

My boom is 14' long, and the two legs is adequate. I could use a third at the after end, but doing so would probably interfere with my reefing setup. The two work just fine, and I chose to compromise the lazy jacks rather than the reefing.

This really is a simple system, and makes a lot of sense once you either see it set up, or work your way through the concept in your own mind. I had a drawing provided by someone else, which was overly complex, but eventually I figured out the concept and was able to easily set up my system. At the onset, I left a lot of extra line on the tails so that I could modify the lengths if needed. After a few times' use, I was able to finalize the various line lengths and cut off the excess.

If you need any clarification, just let me know. I love these lazy jacks.

[Tom Young]

With end boom sheeting and presently no vang(the biggest limitation to roller boom furling-I use a strap preventer system to snatch blocks, archaic but fine for long passages-not good for simple main trim though), I'm thinking my lines can run under the boom.

I'm thinking through the details and stumbled on a site by EZJacks that has a similar idea I think.

Why not just strap hooks on the bottom of the boom to catch the loops?

What about mounting turning blocks instead of cheeks just off my wooden spreaders to clear the mast by a few inches(sound prevention) and the sail cover with cleats below? I would really like to get 4 lines to contain the sail similar to EZJacks but not sure if it will be a big mess to retract?

What are you thoughts having a working system to these ideas? Thanks

[Tim]

What about mounting turning blocks instead of cheeks just off my wooden spreaders to clear the mast by a few inches(sound prevention) and the sail cover with cleats below? I would really like to get 4 lines to contain the sail similar to EZJacks but not sure if it will be a big mess to retract?

Turning blocks on the spreaders instead of cheek blocks should work fine, if that's what you prefer. Sound elimination is a good thought, though I found that with the lines tied tightly, I had no slapping problems when they were stowed.

I originally got this idea--and a thorough drawing--from the PO of my Seabreeze. I have a .PDF drawing that shows the setup he designed for a Seabreeze, from which I extrapolated the information to make them work on the Triton. I think that this original drawing might help you, as it shows 3 legs per side.

Click here to download the drawing: Drawing of Seabreeze Lazy Jacks