Cabin sole removal?

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:02 am

Ok, I know that several people here have removed their cabin soles in their Tritons. Any tips or things to watch out for? I know at least some of these were taken out as part of a major demolition; I need to keep the incidental damage to a minimum. Thoughts? (Other than "you're nuts," Mike! hehe)

Post by **Tim** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:09 am

It would be a shame if you "incidentally damaged" that remaining fake-woodgrain Formica on the sides of your settees.

Other than that potentially tragic event, I don't think you ought to run into too many collateral damage-type things. You can probably get the sole to rip out in a few pieces; there isn't much holding them, typically.

There might be some fiberglass tabbing to cut, or might not. That seems to be more in the older boats that had fiberglassed soles. I don't think #381 had/has any fiberglass securing the sole, but in #100 and #158, the soles were covered with a skin layer of fiberglass as the final "finish".

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:23 am

So I most likely just go at it with a sawz-all, then, and lift the chunks out? I was wondering if there was a "deconstruction" method. Not that I want to save it, so I guess it doesn't matter, does it? hehe

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:36 am

Might this be a case in which it makes sense to make the pattern(s) for the new before removing the old?

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:48 am

Possibly, though the new sole may end up starting a bit lower than the existing, as I'm thinking at this point about using a double-layer of 1/2 inch Meranti, with red birch flooring for the sole's finished surface, which I think is going to be thicker than the original.

I'll have a better sense when I get up there tomorrow...

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:58 am

I've been doing great stuff with Pergo lately.

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:28 am

On your boat?

Actually, Tim has some leftover flooring from his house that I'm going to buy...

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:57 am

I was kidding. I can't imagine a less appropriate application for pergo. A steam sauna, perhaps, but even that might be six vs. a half-dozen.

I do think you might be overbuilding it, though. An inch of ply AND a solid-wood finish sole? Yowza! I don't think you'll need any floors.

(again, I'm mostly kidding. I'm a big fan of using what's on hand)

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:38 am

Well, the Meranti isn't "on hand." Maybe 1/2 inch is overkill if I'm going with a double thickness. (I was thinking of putting a subfloor, then using a second piece to lay-up the flooring outside of the boat, a'la what Tim did on the daysailor. But maybe a single 1/2 piece would be OK. I'll see what things look like when I get to the boat this weekend.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:18 pm

I think a single 1/2" piece of plywood, along with the 3/4" finish material, is more than adequate, structurally.

Another thing: I think the sole may be just a touch wider than 24" at its widest point, which means that you can't get two thicknesses out of a single sheet of plywood. But my memory might be off on this too.

I agree that templating the existing sole is worthwhile before you remove it--even if you end up lowering the new one a touch, you'll still have a good starting point for your new pattern.

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:25 pm

Yeah, probably so. I just want to avoid having to install all the strips in place out on the boat if possible. It wouldn't be the end of the world, of course, but it certainly would be easier to deal with in the shop.

I suppose I can add the strips before final installation of the single sheet of ply, too.

I'm sure this will make more sense to me when I'm actually looking at my boat. The details escape me!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:02 pm

My sole was just tabbed in. (Triton #680)

I was afraid of cutting into the hull so I just went around with my trusty beat up chisel that I use for just that purpose and had it out in about twenty minutes. The tabbing was under the formica siding on the settee fronts and under the sole veneer. I can't quite remember but I don't think the sole came out in one piece. It might have been weak or I might have been impatient, I don't remember. I DO remember that it didn't fit particularly well in the first place.

When you cut out the new piece take a minute to check out the shape. If it is anything like mine each side will look like a couple of squiggly lines. No sweeping curves anywhere!

I am curious as to how you design the new sole. I have been trying to figure out the best way to build mine so that I can get the water tank out of the deep bilge area without destroying the sole should I ever have a need to. I too want to put a nice non-veneer surface material on the sole.

Speaking of bilge tanks... now is probably the best time to add that tank :-)

As for the sole being a shade over 24". I can't remember but I can measure mine on tuesday. I would guess that the early and late model Tritons are slightly different. The keels are definitely wider at the bottom on the later model Tritons. A work around, so you could use a single sheet of plywood, would be to cut the lower panel to fit and then cut the upper panel with whatever is left over. If it is slightly too narrow you could glue in a narrow strip on just that section that needed the extra width. With epoxy all around I bet it would be just as strong as using too full width pieces.

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:04 pm

Thanks Britton. I'll be at the boat tomorrow scrubbing things out, and hopefully getting the sole out. I'll let y'all know what I find!

bcooke wrote:Speaking of bilge tanks... now is probably the best time to add that tank :-)

Quit it, you! Are you trying to instigate a divorce?

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:36 pm

Your wife will absolutely LOVE the extra fresh water tankage!

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:48 pm

bcooke wrote:Your wife will absolutely LOVE the extra fresh water tankage!

Oh, sure. But who's going to pay for it? Not her, certainly!

Post by **dasein668** » Sun May 06, 2007 9:26 pm

Just in case you were thinking that I abandoned this whole project...

The old really had to go...

New floors...

Installed...

Detail: bedded in epoxy...

Test fitting the new sole...

Plugs and hatches cut to fit...

One coat of varnish...

Once I get a few coats of varnish I'll install the sole and fill the gap between the edges of the sole and the hull with thickened epoxy, then paint that out, leaving a seamless installation.

Detailed write up to come at dasein668.com

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun May 06, 2007 9:41 pm

(psst, they're not "floors" unless they join hull to keel. Those are "sole supports")

That's right. I'm a snarky nitpicking know it all.

You, on the other hand, are THE MAN. That would've taken me a month at least.
I like the idea of filling the irregularity between sole and hull after the fact.

Post by **dasein668** » Sun May 06, 2007 9:46 pm

Figment wrote:(psst, they're not "floors" unless they join hull to keel. Those are "sole supports")

That's right. I'm a snarky nitpicking know it all.

You, on the other hand, are THE MAN. That would've taken me a month at least.
I like the idea of filling the irregularity between sole and hull after the fact.

Well, you learn something new every day! I didn't realize that about the floors...

It hasn't taken a month, but it's been sort of slow going. I've got three full days (well, sort of full... 6 hour-type days) in to this point. I think the total project will end up running about 24 man-hours.

As for the idea about filling the gap, sadly I can't take credit for that. It was Tim's idea.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun May 06, 2007 9:55 pm

I must say, the birch is quite attractive. The more I look at it, the more I like it.

What's the plan for lift-ability of the access panels? Mine have 1.25" finger holes drilled through. Tres swanky!

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Sun May 06, 2007 10:14 pm

Nathan, very nice job. I'm looking forward to the installation details.

Post by **dasein668** » Sun May 06, 2007 10:32 pm

Figment wrote:What's the plan for lift-ability of the access panels? Mine have 1.25" finger holes drilled through. Tres swanky!

I'm thinking something like these lift rings here:
http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/4,17077.htm

I like the red birch too. I think it will darken with age as well, which will be even nicer.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:36 pm

Looks nice Nathan,

Interesting how you chose to build the sole. Using those crossmembers and then 'planking' the plywood undersole before installing in the boat sounds like a great idea. I was going to tab a new piece of plywood in and then lay the strips over it. Your way looks much easier.

So you chose not to remove those ballast lifting eyes when you had the chance?

I agree that the birch is nice. I might have to copy you.

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:59 pm

bcooke wrote:Interesting how you chose to build the sole. Using those crossmembers and then 'planking' the plywood undersole before installing in the boat sounds like a great idea. I was going to tab a new piece of plywood in and then lay the strips over it. Your way looks much easier.

Yeah, it was much easier this way. Otherwise I would have had to cut each plank and fit it into place. Instead what I did was lay on full width planks and let them run wild over the edges of the sole, then trim them to shape after the adhesive had cured and the whole thing was a single sstructure:

Post by **dasein668** » Mon May 07, 2007 9:01 pm

bcooke wrote:So you chose not to remove those ballast lifting eyes when you had the chance?

It's not too late. The sole is in Tim's varnish room getting finished right now.

But what if I need to lift the pig??? ;-P

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon May 07, 2007 11:05 pm

And if you wanted to lift the pig would you trust those eyes to do it for you?...

Ah, yes, now I see the real beauty of your method. Trimming the edges on the bench instead of in the boat sounds Soooo much easier.

Shark · Post by **Shark** » Tue May 08, 2007 10:44 am

Nathan,

Very nice job! I'm sure it will look great in your boat.

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Tue May 08, 2007 4:11 pm

You're doing gorgeous work!

I do think those 'floor joists', sole beams, take load. Not really as 'floors' but the hull probably flexes widthwise across that gap. You have short, chunky, and therefore very stiff beams which are loading onto flattish areas of the keel. I'd suggest tabbing the daylights out of them with the idea of increasing the bond area and the area that has to flex. Basically the tabbing would act as bearing plates for transverse load.

The North East 38s have 'floor joists' arranged in several ways according to which model you look at. Some are discontinuous with a removable grid attached by screws. Mine are continuous across the boat. They are rather lightly tabbed in and have broken out. Out of sloth and in the interests of experiment, I simply epoxied the tabbing back onto the oak. If they break again, then I know that the boat really does flex. The NE 38 has several fiberglass bulkheads across the hollow keel integrated into the water tank (and fuel tanks on the older boats). Thus the keel can't pant (change width) but it certainly can flex the adjacent hull (and pop the floor joists loose).

Post by **dasein668** » Tue May 08, 2007 4:51 pm

Quetzalsailor wrote:I do think those 'floor joists', sole beams, take load. Not really as 'floors' but the hull probably flexes widthwise across that gap. You have short, chunky, and therefore very stiff beams which are loading onto flattish areas of the keel. I'd suggest tabbing the daylights out of them with the idea of increasing the bond area and the area that has to flex. Basically the tabbing would act as bearing plates for transverse load.

That's interesting. I really wouldn't expect much motion at that spot, but it's something to consider. I hadn't planned any tabbing at all, since the supports just have to hold up the sole, which is already sort of "wedged" in place against the hull.

Hmmmm.

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Wed May 09, 2007 9:06 am

I think our old boats flex alot more than we imagine. And as fiberglass gets older, it flexes more. When you see a typical old 'glass sailboat with cracking in the deck around the forward corners of the house, you can be confident that the boat's bending.

Our 1972 Morgan 27 could readily be bent by tightening the backstay, so much so that the forward keel bolt would leak when the backstay was tight. Before I wired the shrouds down to the hull the deck would lift about 3/4" at the partners. (Shrouds on earlier M 27s were deck mounted about 8" in from the toe rail.)

Bending our 1970 NE 38 is not so obvious but the gaps between the casework and the sole vary by about 1/8" with whether the boat's in the water and how she was supported on jackstands. She shows flexibility by the cracking at the corners of the cockpit and at the front of the house.

My 1968 Flying Dutchman became so flexible that I could not tension the forestay enough to keep the roller furling genny from catching the spinnaker halyard.

Looking into that Triton's keel, with no transverse structure above the ballast and no floors stiffening the bottom, I can imagine that the keel wags side to side under the boat. I espect that's what broke my sole support beams' tabbing.

Post by **dasein668** » Wed May 23, 2007 8:50 am

Update:

Sole being installed with exterior grade construction adhesive.

Faired in with 40oz of epoxy, a quart of cabosil, and a couple cups of microbaloons.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed May 23, 2007 9:19 am

dasein668 wrote:Sole being installed with exterior grade construction adhesive....
Faired in with 40oz of epoxy, a quart of cabosil, and a couple cups of microbaloons.

So, you think it will stay put?

Post by **dasein668** » Wed May 23, 2007 9:21 am

Figment wrote:
dasein668 wrote:Sole being installed with exterior grade construction adhesive....
Faired in with 40oz of epoxy, a quart of cabosil, and a couple cups of microbaloons.
So, you think it will stay put?

Hope so! ;-D

Post by **dasein668** » Wed May 23, 2007 9:49 am

bcooke wrote:So you chose not to remove those ballast lifting eyes when you had the chance?

Just for you, Britton:

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed May 23, 2007 11:12 am

Don't mind me. I'm just envious of a sole that doesn't go squish underfoot or look like it belongs in an oyster dragger.

Post by **Tim** » Wed May 23, 2007 11:16 am

Figment wrote:Don't mind me.

We don't.

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Wed May 23, 2007 3:03 pm

Looks good! Inspirational really. I am interested in replacing the sole to my Ariel someday as well partly to replace the nasty one that is there, but also to reach the bilge to cover, fair and paint a pathetically porous roving put in by Pearson to cover the lead ballast. I know for a fact water moves between the bilge and the void between the ballast. I can't tell by your pictures, but does your Triton have a similar layup in the bilge and did you do anything about it before the addition of the new sole? Just curious as I work out my project in my head.

You can see rogue powder that made its way into the bilge area after I did the grinding necessary to repair the hole in my keel earlier this spring.

Ifyou look closely you can see the holes.

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Wed May 23, 2007 4:27 pm

Geez....now the rest of the boat will look bad.

Guess you will just have to rip it all out and redo it....

That looks so NICE!!!!

Post by **dasein668** » Wed May 23, 2007 4:36 pm

My bilge wasn't that bad. The glass covering the ballast seems substantial and sound, if a bit lumpy. It had also been previously painted with bilgekote or similar at some point in the past. Water generally beaded up and ran off.

With the work I did in the bilge, I did recoat out the whole bilge area with fresh bilgekote before installing the new sole.

Post by **dasein668** » Thu May 24, 2007 11:23 pm

Just needs one more coat of varnish due to the dulling effect of the acetone I used to clean up the epoxy overage...

"Look, ma! I can stand in my messy boat!"

Fairing painted out. DUN.

Detail of the fairing.

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Fri May 25, 2007 8:16 am

Verrry nice Nathan!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri May 25, 2007 10:10 am

Beautiful Nathan, mind if I shamelessy copy it?

Just curious, did you go to the trouble of making your hatches lock down or do they just sit in place?

Now that you have the sole done, the settees start looking pretty rough! What are your plans there?

[Mike's battle cry inserted here]

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Fri May 25, 2007 10:14 am

No, they just sit in place. I'm not building an around-the-world boat, so I didn't see that it was that important.

Settees: for now just some white semigloss paint. Eventually (when I redo the galley) I'll veneer them with the beadboard I'm using elsewhere in the boat, I think.

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Fri May 25, 2007 1:35 pm

Nathan, I noticed you have ABI berth lights in your cabin (at least that's what they look like to me.) Have they worked well for you? I plan on putting two in my Ariel cabin once I finish painting.

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Post by **dasein668** » Fri May 25, 2007 2:14 pm

Tim Mertinooke wrote:I noticed you have ABI berth lights in your cabin (at least that's what they look like to me.) Have they worked well for you?

No complaints. They're bright and they've held up well. The bulbs, of course, get quite hot, and draw much more than an LED lamp, but they're pretty nice units.

Post by **dasein668** » Mon May 28, 2007 11:07 pm

Project Log posted here: http://www.dasein668.com/projects/winter0607/cabinSole

MQMurphy · Post by **MQMurphy** » Tue May 29, 2007 7:41 am

Gorgeous work - thanks for posting that.

AJ · Post by AJ » Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:31 pm

Wow!

Your new cabin sole looks fantastic, Nathan! And shiny new freshly painted bilges to boot. Is that the new formula gray bilgekote straight out of the can or did you attempt to dilute it to a lighter gray by mixing in some white bilgekote?

AJ

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:49 pm

Thanks. I'm pretty happy with the way the sole came out. It's S-O-L-I-D! Which was the idea, after all. And it doens't look too bad, either.

As for the bilgekote: After extensive testing and color matching (yeah, right) I have been mixing my bilgekote 1:1 grey to white.

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