Winter is for rudder fun

[Quetzalsailor]

I had to pay the yard to pull the rudder for repair; they don't allow digging for clearance. The rudder has been weeping water and goo at each winter pull and it seemed like time.

Our 1970 boat has all stainless components, unlike older NE 38s. All are apparently just fine. The cable is a 1 x 19 x maybe 3/16" and is probably just fine. I have not taken the binnacle apart to clean and lubricate, yet.

Grease was everywhere except in the bushings and there's no real way to keep it there or to add it; ideas? Perhaps drill and tap for zerks? I have not cleaned any greasy component except the rudder shaft so don't know about bushings themselves, might not be any. The rudder shaft is peculiarly hacked-looking at the upper bearing point, perhaps someone was trying to increase the effective diameter; seems pretty half-a**ed to me!

I ground all the paint and barrier coat off to reveal what repairs were concealed. I then ground off nearly all repair materials to reveal the original outer lamina of mat. Very little original blue gelcoat remained (or maybe that blue was also repair material). What remains is a rather poorly-shaped foil: the leading edge is pointed, not rounded; the faces near the trailing edge are unevenly hollow (as much as 3/16" of filler was removed). Some smallish areas are shattered; I have not ground them out. There are 5-6 2" x 6-8" rectangular cutouts in the port side, remains of someones' exploratory surgery or repair, that are not well bonded to the original rudder shell and are covering foam filler. They are weeping water and I have not yet dug them out to see what's really going on.

The rudder will be next to the furnace all winter for drying and I may build some sort of hot box to boost things a bit. My intent is to fix properly the shattered spots and those cutouts, laminate the whole faces in glass-epoxy, fill and fair in epoxy. I will shape a proper foil and am wondering how to do that accurately and symmetrically.

Comments and advice welcomed!

[jollyboat]

You may be challenged to remove all of the moisture. In what is described in the rudders construction this can be difficult. I have seen vacuum bagging used to assist in removing water that appears to be successful. In concern to the "furnace technique" I would make some accurate recordings of weight to see if any water is escaping/evaporating.
With some measuring you come close to an estimated maximum volume of water that may be traped inside as well - this would at least give you an idea of what you may be challenged with in far far as how much water may be inside as well as what to look for in the reduction of weight. 1 fl. oz. of water weighs 1.0425 av. oz. via - 8.34pounds per gal. of h2O * 16 / 128 av. oz.
= 1.0425 av. oz. is the weight per liqid oz. of water so for every 1oz of water that leaves your rudder it should weigh 1.0425 ounces less on the scale. If you have a pint of water in your rudder it will weigh on the scale 16*1.0425 = 16.68oz. or about a pound and a half. Now you need to guestimate how much water you think might be in the rudder.

[catamount]

A wet foam-filled fiberglass rudder shell with stainless steel shaft and skeleton (presumably)....?

Why not just start over and build a new rudder from scratch?

At least that is what has been suggested to me as probably being easier than taking apart the old rudder to check for hidden corrosion of the metal skeleton, and then putting it all back together....

Not that I've actually done anything about my rudder yet...

[Ceasar Choppy]

A wet foam-filled fiberglass rudder shell with stainless steel shaft and skeleton (presumably)....?

Why not just start over and build a new rudder from scratch?

At least that is what has been suggested to me as probably being easier than taking apart the old rudder to check for hidden corrosion of the metal skeleton, and then putting it all back together....

Not that I've actually done anything about my rudder yet...

Only problem I see with starting over is that if your rudder has any foil to it, you will be doing ALOT of difficult fairing to replicate the foil shape.

[jollyboat]

By the sounds of it there already is a lot of fairing to do - but foil fairing is not that hard really - a drag/lift formula of 35% max draft aft on the cord from the leading edge would be fine. Even if no camber were used - the 30 gals of fuel 100 gallons of water and basic cruising gear do more to affect performance than the rudder foil shape at this level of sailing. No offence to Quetzalsailor - include me on that level of sailing too.

[catamount]

Only problem I see with starting over is that if your rudder has any foil to it, you will be doing ALOT of difficult fairing to replicate the foil shape.

If the existing rudder is in good shape -- except for being waterlogged and structurally suspect -- one could use it as the plug for a mold in which to lay up new rudder skins. But I suspect shaping your core and laying up your skins directly over that might be less work. Even if you don't use the old rudder as a mold plug, you could take templates from it to shape your new one with.

[Rachel]

Your rudder may not lend itself to this, but...

I know that Charlie (from this forum) took the rudder off of his Dutch-built Meridian (DeVries-Lentsch though, not LeComte) and simply sliced it down the middle. He came out with two "clean" halves, and was able to inspect the internal web (it was bronze and in fine shape). After that he scooped out all of the original filler material, replaced it, and then used fiberglass strips to put it all back together.

At a boatyard I used to work at, we would often cut a "door" into the side of the rudder. That is, we would cut out most of one face of the rudder, but leave the edges (easier to get the shape back). That face would be removed and the wet foam taken out, and then we would either replace it with surfboard-type foam, or we would cast blocks of light, filled epoxy to use as filler.

Since you have it off the boat and inside for the winter, I would think you might want to get the whole thing apart and know it's right, but then I'm not looking at the rudder (or at the rest of your schedule).

Rachel

[Quetzalsailor]

Great idea to check progress with a scale. Building upon that, it might be useful to plot weight against time, since there's no way to know where you're going. When the curve flattens out, it's getting dry. I vacuum-bagged the Morgan 27's rudder after I drilled the faces at approx. 1" centers before I repaired it but never knew how successful I was drying it. It looked perfect for the five years after the repair (then sold the boat).

I've read about several folks who've sliced their rudder open, welded what they had to, and reassembled with glass outside and foamed full. Old Morgans, and some others, had carbon steel webs and stainless steel posts. That beggars belief...

Fairing the Morgan was relatively easy, the shape looked pretty good and a little work with a longboard sufficed. The LeComte's looks pretty terrible. Though not likely to seriously race Quetzal, I do like decent performance; a more important reason for fairing is decent steering. I've just finished reading all Eric Hiscocks' books. Two of his 5 Wanderers had assymetrical rudders with resultant steering quirks.

I don't think I'd hesitate to make a new rudder if I were planning to go offshore. However, the Chesapeake is pretty benign. The most expensive bit would be the shaft, not considering the welding; it's got a keyway, a reduced dia at the head with fine threads, and a square end for the emergency tiller. Presuming little or no corrosion, my fear is fatigue in the rudder post. Q is a 16,000 lb boat with a solid stainless bar about 1 3/4" in dia. Much smaller than most stuff today on either spade or keel-supported rudders. By comparison, the 7,500 lb Morgan 27 has a piece of 3 1/4" stainless pipe with a transverse hole in it.

[JetStream]

I just recently finished changing the stainless shaft in my Pearson rudder. I cut one half off, leaving about 1-1/2" all around the edge so I could get the half put back on right. The internal urethane foam in the Pearson was about 60 pounds per cubic foot. I took out all that I needed to remove the shaft and "wing". Then I actually had that wing welded on the new shaft as it was cheaper than buying a new piece of 304. I epoxied the assembly back into the remaining rudder half, then foamed it with 30 pound per cubic foot urethane Part A - Part B. (The standard Part A - Part B urethane foam that you buy is about 2 pounds per cubic foot and your rudder will "float up" when you are heeled. The 60 pound stuff would be better to match seawater density, but it will be hard to get.) Then I epoxied the old skin back on with a lot of holes drilled in it to insure there were no air pockets. Once it was on, I ground a bevel on the incision and fiberglassed the joint. I was highly pleased with the result. I have pictures of the process if anyone is interested.

[Tim]

I have pictures of the process if anyone is interested.

I think pictures of that would be very interesting for one and all. Questions on this sort of rudder crop up often enough that seeing your experience would be helpful to have here for those looking to do a similar job.

[jollyboat]

[quote="Quetzalsailor"]Great idea to check progress with a scale. Building upon that, it might be useful to plot weight against time, since there's no way to know where you're going.

Yes, you can get a good idea of where you are going if by "going" you mean a given starting point of approximate water volume that is trapped inside the rudder and the rate of it's (the water) being removed or evaporating from the rudder. By measuring the size of the rudder you could arrive at a close estimated total volume. I would guess that 50% of this volume could be displaced by the foam core and any internal structure of the rudder. Now, assume the remaining 50% is water. At this point you could run some quick experiments for timed analylisis. You could make a box with ruffly the same dimensions of the rudder. Coat the inside of the box with a resin of some sort - epoxy, polyester - whatever - just a quicky - this is in the name of science people - now fill the box with a substance similar to that of the rudder, foam - cardboard whatever - add the estimated water volume into the expirmental rudder box. Screw the lid onto the box. Drill holes in the box in a manner such that you do not loose the water. Weigh the box. Set it next to the furnace or whatever and let stand for a day - weigh the box every day and record the weight - when the box returns to its weight before you added the water calulate the number of days - Voila you have some real data (of sorts).
Though not perfect, by duplicating similar conditions in your "control" rudder you could come up with a close idea of how you are doing with the real rudder. I know what you are all thinking - too much Myth Busters - but this would give you at least an reasonable idea of what you are up against.

[catamount]

Just plotting the weight versus time should show an exponentially decreasing curve as the water leaves the rudder. When the curve starts to flatten out less and less water will be leaving the rudder per unit of time, to the point that you will have gotten the rudder as dry as you reasonably can given your drying procedure and the amount of time you're willing to give it.

Whether the rudder is really fully dry is another question, and that's where coming up with an initial estimate of how much water is actually in the rudder would be helpful.

So let's say your curve flattens out and you've got the rudder as dry as you're going to get it but it still contains 15 pounds of water -- now what do you do?

[Rachel]

Jetstream, that sounds a lot like the process they used to use where I was working. Only difference being that they replaced the foam (usually) with specially cast blocks. I wasn't there when they did the research on this, but apparently they were happy with the concept.

What they'd do is cast a number of "blocks" of epoxy thickened with microballoons (aiming for a pretty "light" outcome) and then saw them as necessary to mostly fill the cavity with them (then use thickened epoxy as filler). After that they'd reattach the "window" panel just as you did.

For molds, they used bread and cake pans that from the grocery store - the relatively cheap, dark grey metal ones that have a built on, clear, "slippery" coating. Funny thing was that they looked just like brownies as they slightly overfilled the pan and cured.

As they were working on re-filling the rudder, they'd use an infrared thermometer to make sure things weren't getting too hot as they cured. Normally all went fine, but every once in a while they'd hose the outside down if it was getting warmish.

Rachel

[JetStream]

Okay, I finally posted the pictures of the rudder repair. Instead of putting it all here, I think it is easier to just use this link:
http://www.javelin38.com/rudderrepair.html
I hope it is helpful for someone.

[catamount]

http://www.javelin38.com/rudderrepair.html
I hope it is helpful for someone.

AWESOME! Thanks!

[Ancient Race]

Great documentary, Bruce, thanks for posting it.

But now that the rudder's done, you won't have anything to occupy you for the rest of the winter . . .

[Quetzalsailor]

Back up in Bruce's site and you'll find another lovely old Tripp design from about the same time as the LeComte NE 38, the Medalist 33, the Bermuda 40.

I've been corresponding with Art Karpf who was the LeComte dealer in New Rochelle. Apparently, these rudders were originally hollow. The armature was glassed into one shell and the other shell added. Interestingly, the tangs were threaded into the rudderpost. The rudders were intended to be wet and had holes top and bottom to ensure it. Adolf LeComte did not believe you could keep a rudder dry and he did not try. You identify the hollow side by sound and cut the windows there.

Art reports that just a few LeComte rudders have needed repair over the last 40+ years.

I suppose I should remove the rest of the repairs and dig the foam out (been waffling and not looking forward to the mess now that that heavy thing's in the basement) for faster drying before getting to work on this winters' house project.

[JetStream]

Doug,
That is quite interesting about Quetzal's rudder. I'd be highly interested to see pictures of that when you take it apart. I wonder what size holes you use to let water in and out without getting nasty growth inside. Or maybe it naturally can't support growth because of the oxygen levels inside. When the rudder drains as you pull the boat, does yucky water come out, or is it pretty clean?

[Tim Mertinooke]

"as anyone with a boat knows, one thing leads to another........"

Well said. I've found working with boats is like opening a russian matryoshka doll; many unending suprises all leading to a small anticlimactic finale. The rudder looks great! It will certainly offer piece of mind next season.

[Quetzalsailor]

Well, I bit the bullet and cut the rudder open.

The rudder was indeed as described for LeComtes: The rudder post has 5 bars welded perpendicular to it which are glassed into one face. The other face is simply attached around the perimeter. The attachment consists of a continuous wad of reinforced polyester putty and a layer of mat. The intent is that the water freely fills and drains.

Unfortunately, the 5 2" x 6-8-10" holes were cut between the glassed-in rods and the simple face was unmodified. I cut the simple face out, leaving 2 1/2" or so all around and prised it off of the foam and the areas of filler which extended past the 2 1/2". I dug the sodden foam out. There was mud in the bottom, between the foam and the faces. The water did not smell all that fresh and the smell of styrene was very strong. The stainless components looked fresh out of the welding shop: Absolutely bright and shiny, no corrosion or discoloration anywhere including the weld material itself (I understand, and have observed, that welding heat causes the components in the steel alloy to move around a bit and be more susceptible to corrosion) I dug some of the original polyester smear off the stainless, both at welds and in the field looking for signs of crevice corrosion; all is apparently well.

Besides the holes and the foam, nothing was repaired and nothing was damaged; clearly someone simply did not understand that the rudder was supposed to be hollow.

The whole reason I started this work was the oozing of goo from 20ish small spots and along the edge of a badly repaired hole. None of these problems showed after I ground the exterior down to the original mat and after I removed all the repair material.

I then power-washed the pieces. The smear of urethane foam came off. Most of the muddy discoloration came off. The reddish tinge of styrene came off. Interestingly, areas of polyester resin came off, too, leaving the mat and roving looking resin starved.

I set the pieces to dry next to the furnace. I will 'barrier coat' both inside and outside of the faces with epoxy as part of the repair and all new work will be epoxy-glass. And I don't know why I'd foam it full, either. Repair will wait until spring.

[rshowarth]

Can't wait to see all the step by step pictures ;-)