New diesel input wanted

dmairspotter · Post by **dmairspotter** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:02 am

In my never ending quest to get rid of what little money AIG has left in my possession, I am considering a new diesel for my Dufour 27. The current motor is a Volvo MD6A that is long out of print, smokes, is hard to start, etc, etc.

Went to the Maine boatbuilders show yesterday and talked to Yanmar, Nanni, and Beta. Looked at the 14 hp models from all three. All based on the Kubota 2 cyl.

They seemed very similar. Show pricing was within $200 of each other. I know the Yanmar would be good, probably the Beta also. Nannis new to me, and I wonder about local support.

I would be grateful for any thoughts on this process.

rbporter · Post by **rbporter** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:54 am

I just went through the same process with the same mix in selecting a motor for my Contessa 26 (see Tim's current project). I selected the Beta 13.5.
I like the Kubota block and the availability of parts from Kubota tractor dealers, NAPA Stores, Wal-Marts, etc. There is no builder giving exclusive parts distribution rights to dealers at dealer prices as I understand is true w/ Yanmars. Access to all aspects of the Beta make it very serviceable, ie: oil and filter changes, pumps, belts etc. In looking at the Nanni I was told to look at the details of their warranty(see their website). To limiting and complicated for me. I also have a friend that repowered his Contessa last year. He powered 2/3's the way down the intercoatal this fall sipping 3/4 liter /hr. "Ran like a Swiss watch" he reports.

rbporter · Post by **rbporter** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:21 am

I just went through the same process with the same mix in selecting a motor for my Contessa 26 (see Tim's current project). I selected the Beta 13.5.
I like the Kubota block and the availability of parts from Kubota tractor dealers, NAPA Stores, Wal-Marts, etc. There is no builder giving exclusive parts distribution rights to dealers at dealer prices as I understand is true w/ Yanmars. Access to all aspects of the Beta make it very serviceable, ie: oil and filter changes, pumps, belts etc. In looking at the Nanni I was told to look at the details of their warranty(see their website). To limiting and complicated for me. I also have a friend that repowered his Contessa last year. He powered 2/3's the way down the Intercoatal this fall sipping 3/4 liter /hr. "Ran like a Swiss watch" he reports.

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:42 am

Don't forget the fourth option... Phasor out of Florida. Kubota block, marinized in the US and one year ago the 28Hp was about $1000 cheaper than the Beta. See my old post on Luders 33 repower. I have had nothing but great luck with it.

http://www.phasormarine.com/index.htm

B.T.W. I am in no way attached to this company. Monetarily or otherwise (I will not be getting a bailout or AIG type Bonus)

rbporter · Post by **rbporter** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:56 am

Beta, Nanni and Phasor.....all very good choices I'm sure but who will be left standing when this economical "stuff" gets sorted out.

John, CD28 · Post by **John, CD28** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:03 pm

dmairspotter wrote: Went to the Maine boatbuilders show yesterday and talked to Yanmar, Nanni, and Beta. Looked at the 14 hp models from all three. All based on the Kubota 2 cyl.

Yanmar is using a Kubota block too?

I just swapped out a Volvo MD7A for a Beta 13.5hp; it was an easy swap. The Beta has to be blocked up 2" and the new shaft is much longer. The extra shaft length (shorter motor/gearbox) provided enough space behind the gearbox for a PSS shaft seal. Also, the Beta is nearly 200lbs lighter, allowing the boat to sail better.

The toughest part of this swap may actually be designing and installing a good exhaust system. Unlike the old Volvo, the new motors don't come with a muffler attached. The short new motors will free up some space in back to work with in this regard too.

Good luck,
John

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:13 pm

I didn't know that about the Yanmar being a Kubota block either.

I've heard reports of a much larger Nanni being difficult to bleed/start when that's called for. Might be something to compare on all three?

Also, after reading about some of the "drop in" factory engine configurations, I'd like to see where the mounts are going to end up when they're supplied for your "drop in" replacement and whether they block or interfere with anything/and how.

Rachel

PS: Not a recommendation, as I'm not too familiar with them, but Vetus (Mitsubishi block) also makes a couple of engines in your size range.

John, CD28 · Post by **John, CD28** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:54 pm

Rachel wrote:Also, after reading about some of the "drop in" factory engine configurations, I'd like to see where the mounts are going to end up when they're supplied for your "drop in" replacement and whether they block or interfere with anything/and how... PS: Not a recommendation, as I'm not too familiar with them, but Vetus (Mitsubishi block) also makes a couple of engines in your size range.

Excellent points Rachel!

I ordered my Beta with "standard" 14-5/8" mounts to match the 14-1/2" beds under my old MD7A. After blocking it up 2" to meet the shaft, the Beta sits on the bed just fine - no clearance issues at all. The fore & aft location of the mounts still required drilling new mounting holes though. Whereas you may be blocking up the motor to meet the shaft, space above the motor for a high rise exhaust now becomes an issue. Mine was fine, but boats do vary.

The worst clearance issues I've seen are Atomc 4 replacements, where they try to shoehorn a motor onto a 12" wide bed. Beta is guilty of this, and they create clearance issues between their own mounts and the motor itself.

From what I've read, even a small Vetus has an extremely wide footprint, something like a 16" wide bed. I've seen one stuffed into a CD28 like mine, but it wasn't pretty.

These really are the details that make a huge difference in how a repowering job goes.

Best,
John

dmairspotter · Post by **dmairspotter** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:37 pm

I may have misunderstood, but I thought the Yanmar guy said their 2 cyl block was a Kubota.

I wasn't able to get up to the boat to measure my beds today, so I might put off this major purchase off until the fall. The motor probably wouldn't get in for launching this year anyway.

It will give me a little more time to make sure I get it right.

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:45 pm

I don't think Yanmar is using Kubota diesels....yet. I believe that Yanmar still makes their own engines. I checked Yanmar site and it is silent on the manufacturer.

David · Post by **David** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:19 pm

What is the significance of Yanmar using Kubota blocks? So what if they do.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:53 pm

David wrote:What is the significance of Yanmar using Kubota blocks? So what if they do.

The "significance" is that someone is looking for a new engine, and is comparing all the salient points. Who makes the block apparently interests him. That doesn't make one better/worse than another, necessarily, but why not know? Why ask as if that was something unreasonable to even think about?

Rachel

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:03 pm

What Rachel says is true plus, since Yanmar has switched from the GM line to the YM line, many mechanics that were in love with the Yanmar GM line are calling the new YM line a POS. They remark that the quality is no longer there, that they have left their "Everything is easily accessible from the front" way of building an engine and engines were arriving at the shop with problems that would require they either be returned or repair parts would need to be shipped for engines that had never been run. Word was that the were trying to get out of the small engine business and stick with the big diesel/big money power boat market. So if Yanmar switched from their own engine to a Kubota it would a huge shift that would be equivalent to Chevrolet selling a Corvette with a Hemi. Nothing wrong with it but somehow it ain't right.

It would signal one of a number of possibilities:

1) They admit they made a POS engine and it is the quickest way they can save face.
2) They are out of the small engine market but will sell until no one buys
3) They still want their finger in the small engine market until they can make a comeback
4) Maybe it was a decision driven by economics. With this switch in the economy, maybe it is not a good time to get out of any market that may work. It hasn't been too long. lets switch strategies and put out a good engine while our name is still on the top of most people's wish list.
5)Anyone can fill in a blank at this point. Bottom line GM good - YM...the jury is still out. Some love it.... some don't.

barrybrown · Post by **barrybrown** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:14 am

I bought a Vetus 13 hp from Brewer at the Newport show last fall, as mentioned earlier it is built on a Mitsubishi base. When looking one of my considerations was displacement to hp, I am not sure that I can defend the preference for larger displacement but it is generally considered a plus.
The main reason for choosing the Vetus was price, as I understand it they were selling out their inventory in the US because of an inability to meet environmental standards.
I don't know if they have any left but if price is a main focus it may be worth giving them a call.
Barry

dmairspotter · Post by **dmairspotter** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:24 am

My thinking was that IF they were all built on the same donor block then that would basically eliminate engine internals/design as a decision making element. Decision would then be based on ancillaries, such as alternator capacity, dealer network/service, price, etc.

On closer inspection of my sales literature, it appears that the yanmar may not be based on the Kubota block. I know that Yanmar is a competent marine engine builder, and if they design their own blocks/internals I would not consider that a negative.

John, CD28 · Post by **John, CD28** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:24 pm

David wrote:What is the significance of Yanmar using Kubota blocks? So what if they do.

It does make a difference. The little Kubota based diesels are easy to find parts for. Lots of tractors and generators are also using the Kubota Z482. In fact, if things go really bad with your boat's engine, you can buy a whole new Kubota long block for well under $1,000 if you look around. Then it's just a matter of swapping over your "marinized" parts.

This looks like one here:
http://www.oebin.com/product_p/1058902.htm

Of course, you'd have to paint it red!

John

Maine Sail · Post by **Maine Sail** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:13 pm

Yanmar blocks, on small engines, are are 100% made by Yanmar not Kubota. Yanmar is one of the larger producers in the world of small diesel engines just as Mitsubishi & Kubota are. All three are used in commercial equipment like skid steers, tractors and other similar equipment..

On larger engines, much larger, Yanmar does use some Scania and BMW blocks.

Nanni uses Kubota's on smaller engines and Toyota on larger engines over about 100hp..

Universal uses Kubota

Westerbeke uses Mitsubishi on most all current models. Older ones were a mix of blocs from Leyland and others.

Beta uses Kubota

Vetus uses Mitsubishi

forrest · Post by **forrest** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:43 pm

It's interesting to me that Yanmar might be trying to get out of the small engine biz. It seems like all the big sailboat builders use Yanmar almost exclusively. They must have a huge share of the market. Why would the abandon that?

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:33 pm

barrybrown wrote:The main reason for choosing the Vetus was price, as I understand it they were selling out their inventory in the US because of an inability to meet environmental standards.

I had occasion to speak with a Vetus dealer about the sale-priced engines not too long ago. I asked him if/how the newer (non sale) ones were environmentally different, and he said they were not different in that respect, but that it would cost them too much (or they were not able to) get the proper identifying paperwork/certification for these existing engines.

What I took away from that was that the newer ones did not have an "environmental" upgrade, but were simply given a new certification. This was a casual conversation, though, so I would advise double-checking before purchase.

Rachel

barrybrown · Post by **barrybrown** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:00 pm

"What I took away from that was that the newer ones did not have an "environmental" upgrade, but were simply given a new certification."

That has the ring of truth to it considering that Westerbeke is selling the same engine.

I didn't mean to imply that price was the only reason for choosing Vetus, I consider it to be a quality engine at least the equal of the others I looked at.
The Yanmar had some features that may have sold me if the prices were the same. In my opinion the widely spaced engine mounts on the Vetus are a plus, I would rather build new beds than install a 2 cylinder diesel on the narrow beds of the Atomic 4.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:32 pm

Barry,

I didn't take it that you were shopping on price only. It might have looked that way because of the way I snipped your quote -- I could have left that part off.

Rachel

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:02 am

dmairspotter wrote:... Volvo MD6A that is long out of print, smokes, is hard to start, etc, etc...

Considering the expense involved for a new engine, is it worth considering repair/rebuild?
"Smokes" is often the injectors (which are not hard to rebuild/replace).
"Hard to start" is often related to this (carbon build-up in the exhaust, again not a very difficult thing to solve).

I rebuilt a Volvo MD1 a few years ago, and was pleasantly surprised how well it all worked out. Here's a Workshop Manual for your engine.

And a running takeout - MD7A for sale

dmairspotter · Post by **dmairspotter** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:36 am

I thought (for a microsecond) about rebuilding the Volvo. I know it has (had) carbon in the exhaust because the exhaust fell apart in my hands as I was removing it to get at the raw water impeller which is located at the back of the engine behind the water injection elbow. I was trying to get at the water pump to investigate the leak onto the transmission housing. Of course, all this is in the most inaccessible part of the engine compartment.

I figure 30+ years is a good run for a raw water cooled engine.

Another issue I have with the engine is the starting method. It has a starter/generator which requires the decompression handles to be lifted before spinning the engine up. Then you drop the decompression levers and maybe it starts. Not so bad for me, but it makes it so the wife is not comfortable going out without me. Maybe with a regular key start she'd be willing to give it a try.

Anyway, AIG willing, a new diesel is in my future.

rbporter · Post by **rbporter** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:16 pm

Speaking of diesels.....Tim has just replaced my 1985 low hour Bukh DV8 (or maybe it's a DV10) with a 13.5 hp Beta. The baby Bukh is now looking for a new home.
Bukh is Danish. Production of this one cylinder engine has ended however, but they still build larger marine diesels (like Yanmar). Parts are available from North American distributors but are expensive.
I've never run the engine but it did check out ok four years in the boats survey. It has not been run since.
Includes wiring harness, panel, operators, shop and parts manuals.
Any interest??

dmairspotter · Post by **dmairspotter** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:01 pm

Thanks, but no interest on my end.

ddsailor25 · Post by **ddsailor25** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:51 pm

We're going on our 5th season with our Beta 15.5hp diesel. LOVE THIS ENGINE! We only have about 150 hours on her and she runs perfect. We went from a A4 with very old stringers and I did the install ourselves. What I found during the install was that engine didn't fit great on the narrow beds. The engine basically was up against one of the stringers to get the alignment right. Two years ago I decided rip out the old stringers and rebuild. We bought the new mounts and she fits much better. I'm sure any of the diesels that were talked about would work out great, but for the ease of getting parts you can't beat the beta.

Dave

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