Thoughts on Heating and Water System

[Rich P]

Hey there!

As part of my plans to make Dreadnought comfy to live aboard, I intend to install some form of heating, and hot and cold running water, probably a bit much for the size of the boat but something I'd like for living aboard! For example it would be nice, if I'm on passage and everything gets soaked below, as it so often does to get the heating on and dry out the boat.

I've got a few idea's for the system, but I'd like to bounce them off you lot and hear your thoughts / tips!

It really needs to be diesel powered, I don't have the ability to store vast amounts of gas or solid fuel, and since I already carry diesel for the engine its a logical choice.

Option A:
Forced Air diesel heater, Calorifier with a heating element for when connected to shore power and heated by the cooling circuit water of the engine.

The advantages I can see are, blown hot air, drawn in from outside has less moisture so should help dry the boat, it will also move plenty of air about helping keep damp etc at bay. Disadvantages are the size of the conduit, for the hot air, and the small engine of this boat (Yanmar 1gm10) means I'd be limited to something like a 10l Cal.

Option B:
A hydronic diesel water heater, this could be connected to radiators around the boat, maybe a blown air rad as well, but it could also be used to heat the hot water, this will mean the hot water is not dependant upon shore power or running the engine. However I imagine this wouldn't dry the boat out as thoroughly due it not moving much air. However you could place radiators in strategic places like the hanging locker, which would be a big help.

I'm swinging towards option B, although it will draw more power, use more diesel and cost more, it seems a better all round solution.

As for the water system, I'm not really experienced in anything like this, but I think I'll need the pressure pump, a small accumulator, and I reckon a 10l cal with a shore power heating element as well should be adequate for my needs. And if it doesn't come built into the cal, a thermostat device to mix the hot and cold water so it isn't scalding hot!

Any thoughts or other idea's on how I could work this? Theres no room for a stove, or bulkhead mounted heater...

[Shoalcove]

I don't have any direct experience but I have heard good reviews on this brand- http://www.itrheat.com/Hurricane.html It'll heat your cabin and your water.
If the heat is for living aboard at the dock, a couple electric heaters are a lot less!

[mitiempo]

If your engine is raw water cooled I wouldn't count on it heating water effectively. A fresh water cooled engine runs hotter and will do a much better job.
I agree if you have shorepower an electric heater is the way to go. I live aboard and have been warm through out recent below freezing weather with 2 small electric on a 27' boat.
I would forget the hot water on a 25' boat. It adds a lot of complication not to mention cost. A cheap water heater with element will be 400 to 500, a real good one 750 or more. The adjustable temp you are after is not found on the cheaper units.
You don't need an accumulator with some of the newer pumps by the way.

[Rich P]

Electric heaters are great... When you have shorepower! I'd like to be able to heat the boat when on the hook, or on a mooring :).

As for the water heater I was thinking: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10-Litre-Surecal- ... 2647wt_905

Its not that cheap, but It should do the job, the raw water thermostat is set to open at 60degrees c (140 in american terms :) ) which should be enought for warm water... It also has a built in thermostatic mixer valve.

[mitiempo]

I don't believe your small 1 cylinder diesel (I have the YSE8, older but similar) will effectively heat water without a lot of engine time - after a long motoring session of several hours but not from a short session.
Try and find someone with a similar setup and see what the results might be before committing to the expense.

[Rachel]

I'm a bit hesitant to post this, since it can be annoying when you research something, figure out why you want what you want, and then ask questions about it --- only to have people pipe in with "Why not do [option X that you had already discarded and weren't even asking about]?"

On the other hand, you did mention being open to other ideas, so...

Have you considered a diesel bulkhead heater? I lived aboard for a year or so with one of these (much of the time in BC where we ran it all day every day), and found it pretty agreeable. This was on a 30' sailboat with the typical layout. The stove was on the main bulkhead at the forward end of the saloon.

Plusses:
Attractive - you could see the flame which provided much mental coziness.
Simple - no ducts to take up space, get moldy, break, etc. Fairly easily repairable.
Economical - compared to more involved systems.
Removable - you could take it out and stow it if you knew you were going to be in the tropics, etc. Might be nice on a small boat.
"Zoned" heating - that is, warm in the saloon, pretty warm in the galley, cool in the v-berth.
No power required - There is an optional fan, but it is not required or necessary for most of the time.
Quiet - normal mode is basically silent, unless you use the optional fan from time to time (we used it only if conditions were just right for backdrafting).

Minusses:
Potential sooting - Once we had it backdraft and the cabin got a bit sooty, although we figured out how to avoid this. But still.
"Zoned" heating - some people like even heat everywhere (I happen to like it cool for sleeping, i.e. "good sleeping weather").
Cooler at the sole - especially if the heater is mounted relatively high up. You just won't have a warm sole. A fan helps, but doesn't really eliminate it. I would suppose other systems might?
Chimney - You have to figure out where to put the chimney (of course you only do this once). Also, there is a potentially hot pipe in the saloon (though you can have guards for them).

I would choose a bulkhead mounted heater again in a similar situation; whether it be solid fuel or diesel (of course diesel stores many more btu's per volume).

On the hot water:
This may be a complete toss-away for you, since it might remind you too much of camping, but I really did not find any disadvantage to the "heat up some water in the kettle" method of water heating on a small boat. Now, if I had a 200 gallon water tank and a huge shower stall... I might change my mind. But with only 70 gallons (and I'm presuming you won't have more than that on a 25-footer), it just doesn't take very much heated water to dilute cold water to a perfect temperature.

As with other things, I like the simplicity (presuming you already have a cooker/kettle for other uses, it's literally nothing added to complication/space). I used the kettle method for dishes and also for showering (used a pump up garden sprayer in my case - can be used below or outside).

As I said, this may just be a total no-go for you, but I just thought I would mention it, as I can't imagine adding a full-on hot water/pressure water system to a 25' ocean-going live-aboard. But I also know that with boats.... there are as many ways to do things as there are sailors. That's part of the fun :)

Rachel

PS: I had a Sigmar heater, like this one (this is the smallest one; I had the next model up which is the same but slightly taller).



www.sigmarine.com

[mitiempo]

I agree with Rachel about the bulkhead heater and keeping systems simple. It seems like you are planning on systems more suitable for a 35' or larger boat on a 25' one. As a matter of fact I have quite a few neighbors with simpler systems on much larger boats than yours. If it isn't there it can't break.
A kettle works for me and I am a full time liveaboard in a 27' boat.

[mitiempo]

Here is a simple reliable bulkhead heater from your side of the pond.
http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/taylors_079k.htm This is kerosene (paraffin in the UK), but a diesel version is also available.

[Rachel]

Just a note of something to check on the Taylors stoves.

On the Sig stove, the combustion chamber is essentially sealed. Maybe not hermetically, but there is an airtight door with a clamp. I found this to be a nice feature.

On another boat I had a Taylors 079 Kerosene heater. I loved the way it looked, but I wonder about the open burner.

But, the reason I say "something to check" is that I never really used the Taylors to speak of, as we were in the tropics most of the time. I did spend a night on another boat that had a Taylors heater (same type), and there were enough fumes that I slept with two ports wide open (and it was cold out!). I got home two days later and my sleeping bag still smelled like burned kerosene. Since that was not my boat, it may just not have been adjusted properly or something (?). But also the bottom of the burner was just wide open to the cabin.

Again, I'm not saying this with much authority (I feel more confident in my assessment of the Sig, since I lived with one for a long time); but it might be something to check out. I do think most of the Taylors stuff I have seen is nice though, so maybe it was an isolated case.

Rachel

[mitiempo]

There are lots of choices for bulkhead heaters, propane, kerosene, and diesel.
The most popular around here are the Dickinson in either propane or diesel like shown below. There was a Force 10 kerosene heater similar to the Taylors but it is discontinued, although there is still an open flame propane version available. The problem is size. The Dickinson diesel is a bit big, the propane version smaller. Sigmar makes the smallest bulkhead diesel heater I've seen. It is shown below as well as the small open flame propane heater (was Force 10 but they sold it to Sigmar) I would have either before I would install forced air on a 25' boat.
http://www.sigmarine.com/index.html

[Rich P]

I initially looked at the bulkhead mounted heaters as my initial preference.
While I thought them ideal, they are often much more expensive than other options, also, they don't look to be too effective to driving damp out the boat.

For example this current boat (which admittedly had been laid up and not aired for a year and a half on the water, with deck leaks not helping, under the forecabin cushions was some nice black mouldy stuff, and then more underneath the boards covering the v-berth stowage.
I thought some system that circulated the heat properly would do better?

The mean caveat I had with the bulkhead option is the space.. I have a dinette arrangement so the backrest on the forward seat is the main bulkhead, not ideal if there's a beast of a heater pumping out heat there!

I was having second thoughts about the pressurised water, after all I can always add it later...

[Tim]

Note that diesel-fueled bulkhead heaters require 48" minimum chimney length (for proper combustion and draft) that is challenging to properly effect in 25' boats, unless you have a tall external chimney/Charley Noble to bring the stack to the correct height. Usually this is not desirable, though.

I see the Sig 100 requires only 36" chimney, so perhaps you could make that work. In any event, determine whether--and how--you can run the appropriate stack for any such heater you may consider, before you make the jump. I recently went through the motions of researching diesel bulkhead heaters for a 25' boat, and there was simply no way to make the chimney work on that particular boat, at least not without significant modifications ot the interior to fit the heater lower. Even then, it wasn't really practicable.

LPG heaters don't require such significant chimney lengths, but of course you need LPG on board to run them. Check out the requirements for anything you consider, whatever it may be.

But you said in your first post that you don't have room for bulkhead-mount heaters anyway, so it seems a moot point, doesn't it. That said, on a boat like yours, bulkhead-mount heaters really seem like the most practicable option from a cost and complexity standpoint, so I guess you have choices to make.

I think a sealed combustion chamber with dedicated air inlet (like those seen on most LPG and diesel heaters) is a must. Open flames, consumption of cabin air for combustion, and fuel combustion fumes? Forget it.

My own feeling is the built-in heaters and hot water systems you're talking about are far too complicated for so small and simple a craft, but then I'm not going to be living on it. Unfortunately, the size of your boat is going to dictate many compromises in interior components and space for living aboard. To me, the mere act of wanting to live on a 25' boat suggests simplicity and basic needs.

If you need to circulate the heat (and you should), small fans can do an effective job. I always thought computer cooling fans would be a good choice--made for continuous duty and low amperage.

[Rachel]

Oh my apologies - I completely missed where you said there was no room for a bulkhead heater!

I will say that the one I used seemed to drive out damp effectively. I figured it was because it was continually sucking in new/fresh air through various cracks and etc. (since boats aren't airtight) and air circulation is good for drying things.

Again, sorry to have brought up something that you clearly stated wouldn't work. Bad, bad me.

[Rich P]

Well, the decision could be decided soon, I'm bidding on an old forced air system on ebay, It looks like it could be a steal at the moment!

At the moment forced air looks the way to go, the power requirements are manageable once the unit has started (10-15wats), and they don't use to much diesel... I've plenty of room under the cockpit or in the cockpit locker to mount it, I have plenty of stowage space on this boat. (It helps that the beam is carried well aft)

As I'm fitting a small wind genny, and 110watts of solar panels, providing I'm conservative I should be ok!

[Rich P]

Got a cheap Eberspacher blown air system!

I'll hold off on the water till a later date, I'll do without it at first and see how things go :)