The battle of the bilge

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:57 pm

After nearly three weeks of fighting The Battle of the Bilge, I'm discouraged. I think my boat has a permanent, penetrating odor, and I'm tired of camping out off the boat trying to avoid it (vs. camping out ON the boat, which would be comparative luxury). Bleah.

Oh wait, this section of the forum isn't called Pathetic Whining. Sorry!

So, here's the situation: When I first looked at my boat, it reeked of gasoline. There was also an underlying solventy (?) smell, but it was the gasoline that got my attention. I started a different thread on that, and thanks to everyone's help, solved that problem. I might have gotten a bit overambitious, as in addition to no fuel tank, my engine no longer has a carburetor or fuel pump in residence, and I took off the fuel filter cartridge too. Gasoline no longer resides on the boat in any form (for now at least). Let's just say I wanted to be sure :-)

Once the gasoline fumes were gone (the tank was leaking, as a main source), I realized that the really penetrating smell was something other than the "fresh" gasoline. (It did smell strongly of gas before, but that was just an overlay.) I can't quite put my finger on what it is, but it seem like a petroleum-based smell. Kind of an "old" one. For a while I couldn't localize it, but now I'm 99% certain it's coming from the bilge. It's the sort of smell that permeates anything brought aboard - like clothing or bedding or paper towels - so that when you remove them from the boat, they still smell.

The boat is basically empty (as it was when I got it - all the "stuff" had been taken home to the PO's house), so I know there are no stashes of sinisterly leaking unmarked cans, or anthing of the sort. The lockers are all empty. Incidentally, the stbd cockpit locker (which had the leaking gas tank living in it), now smells fresh and clean.

So, I'm nearly certain it's the bilge. Here's the situation, and what I have already tried:

The bilge is shallow under most of the saloon. That part is clean and dry. At the after end of the saloon, under the engine, the bilge becomes very deep - say maybe 40" or so - and runs back to just before the stuffing box. There is not much access to it - just a few inches of gap ahead of the engine. I can reach down in there with a mop, and scrub around some, but not extensively. Currently, the electric bilge pump is not in commission. There is not a "standard" type of manual bilge pump, but there is one of those grey "bilge buddy" type pumps mounted in the stbd cockpit locker, with a long hose that reaches down into the bilge. It goes all the way to the bottom, but won't suck out the last 3-4" of bilge water.

I didn't spill much (if any) gasoline down into the bilge during my engine surgery - and the gas tank wasn't leaking into the bilge either. The bilge isn't particularly gross looking - in fact I can easily see my 1/2" socket resting on the bottom where it landed during the fuel pump removal... It's just a kind of dark gold "bilgey" colored fiberglass.

So, I started by cleaning off the engine with Simple Green and rags, then a toothbrush. At that point I was trying to localize the smell, and I didn't want to clean the bilge and THEN have a bunch of engine dirt go down into it. Now the engine smells pretty good.

Then I dumped a bunch of Simple Green in the bilge and scrubbed with the mop, then added successive buckets of clean water and pumped them out. That didn't do much. I went for another round or two with the Simple Green (regular AND new lemon scented), and then another round, only this time with some West Marine Bilge Cleaner (orange citrus flavor). Each time I hoped to come back to a fresh-smelling boat, but no dice. The initial water I pump out smells okay, but the dregs always smell.

Yesterday I did some Internet research, and also asked some folks at work. They mentioned emulsifiers, which agreed with the various things I'd read on the Internet. I'd been thinking of using some GoJo orange cleaner, so when the Internet collectively mentioned MaryKate's "Bilge Bully" and it smelled like a VERY STRONG version of GoJo, I figured it was worth a try.

I went a few rounds with the Bilge Bully, some soaking, a mop, and a number of fresh rinses last night, but afterwards I'd say the boat smelled like the same boat, but with a layer of orange cleaner on top. Arrghhh! <tears hair>

One possible issue is that the bilge is cold (outside temps near freezing), and my rinse-water is not a whole lot warmer. I don't have a good way to heat large volumes of water right now, but did buy a small Coleman propane burner and a tea kettle, but haven't commenced water-heating operations yet.

I'm at wit's end. Where is my cozy live-aboard? Can a smell become permanently lodged in the fiberglass? Am I always going to get my own couch at the coffee shop? (It is a weird odor...)

And just to add insult to injury, the Internet cafe is closing. The nerve!

--- Rachel

jpmathieu · Post by **jpmathieu** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:23 pm

there is one of those grey "bilge buddy" type pumps mounted in the stbd cockpit locker, with a long hose that reaches down into the bilge. It goes all the way to the bottom, but won't suck out the last 3-4" of bilge water.

I am going to take a shot here.

I found the easiest way to finish cleaning the bilge is with a twenty dollar shop vac. Disposable if it gets to icky. But it will remove tha last bits of that stuff you find in the bottom of the bilge.

After that continue with a few rounds of bilge cleaner ( I prefer simplegreen, strait up, a full gallon) mop that around rinse and suck that out with the vac. Do it a couple of more times, It should help.

Good luck Hopefully others will give their 2Cents also.

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:48 pm

Rachel,

I have an ozone machine you can borrow.

Ozone is a powerful deodorizer and will take the smell out.

This one was at a tool rental place and I bought it to take the funk out of andiamo.

You get to Richmond at all?

Ric

fusto · Post by **fusto** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:49 pm

My 1964 Medalist came with a very odd pervasive odor.
During the summer I keep the hatches cracked and you can barely notice it, but in the winter when the boat is just sitting in the yard, it seems to build up.
I couldnt put my finger on it but then a couple of weeks ago I was using red loctite for something and the smell was VERY similar.

Not sure whats in red loctite but I couldnt believe how close the smell was.

Maybe its old styrene off-gassing?

I wish I could pin it down. My bilge is dry as a bone, and theres really no mildew. Theres nothing on the boat but the original woodwork, and some tools.

Give some loctite a sniff and see if its a similar smell.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:02 am

Clean and prep it as best you can and get yourself a gallon of Bilgekote. It's remarkable what fresh paint can do towards eliminating odors and keeping the boat clean. I know it's a pain, but I think it is likely worth the effort.

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:32 am

Hey Rachel- I had Laura read your post. We were wondering - are you sure little ole you, just a mere woman, can handle all that stuff?

Tongue jammed SOLIDLY in cheek *Grin*

bhartley · Post by **bhartley** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:41 am

Rachel,

Our new 25D had a horrible stink of sanitary hoses and diesel fuel that would not go away. I flushed the bilge (and head & holding tank) with Simple Green and enough water to fill the bilge to the top. I let it sit overnight and then pumped everything dry with a cheapy Stinger wet/dry vac. The Stinger was a good choice for me since I am lazy and tend to FILL the big wet vac and then I can't get it up the companionway.

Several good soakings with Simple Green got rid of most of the smell and then the old fashioned Airwick (the ones with the green gel) air fresheners did the trick.

Might be worth a try to let it soak at least overnight.

Where are the pictures?????

Bly

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:16 am

We have had boats with fuel leak problems before and one of the last places to be resolved is woodwork. If any woodwork, plywood in particular (it seems to wick up petroleum products well) has soaked up fuel then cleaning will quite possibly not resolve the odors. Try looking for slightly dark staining and odor in the vicinity of woodwork that may have contacted your fuel problem areas.

Good luck with your search and remedy, I can only imagine your frustrations about now.

JSmith · Post by **JSmith** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:26 am

Has anyone tried this? I'm thinking about it and read good things about it for head & bilge smell.[uhttp://www.pureayre.com/how-it-works.htmrl][/url]

Tom Young · Post by **Tom Young** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:40 am

by the photos. She's a beauty. This may sound drastic, but assuming you're still on your cradle and will be till spring, what about drilling a hole in the bilge to install a garboard plug?

It sounds like you may just be fighting moisture all around with winter dampness, no sunlight and little dry ventilation.

Draining the bilge would make it easier to really clean it, dry it and and even get a coat of paint on it if you get some warm weather.

Our boats always smell differently in the winter due to the above conditions but the bilge stays dry as I pull the garboard plug for the winter. I know you can get the smell out, don't get too discouraged.

Post by **Tim** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:43 am

As Dave mentioned above, if any contaminents have gotten into the woodwork of the boat, the smells will linger for a long time.

All old boats have this undefinable smell; the exact character of the smell varies slightly from boat to boat, but it's one of those tactile smells that anyone who's experienced it once could always reidentify during a blind smell test.

Culprits (and you wonder why I strip my boats down to nothing and start over):

Cushions
Curtains
Woodwork
Old interior finish (oils, etc)
Fuel
Oil
Antifreeze
Bilge gunk made up of all of the above, and more
Dirt
Grime
Whatever lives in the water, fresh or salt, that makes its way on board

The only route to absolute success is to thoroughly clean, clean, clean, clean, and clean, scrub, clean, get rid of the nasty old fabrics, clean, scrub, and then PAINT EVERYTHING. I've said it a million times. Few people actually believe that having the bilges and all lockers and everything you can reach--and more--can make this difference, but believe me: it does. Nothing else you do will eliminate current and future odors more effectively.

Not only does the paint encapsulate any contaminated fiberglass or wood, but it also makes it far easier to keep clean in the future. Clean means that there's no grime to absorb the odors, nor any porosity of the materials. Gunk gets into the fiberglass, even: remember that fiberglass is fairly porous on a molecular level.

Don't underestimate the effect that painting out your entire bilge and interior locker spaces will have. Tons of work, yes. But worth it. Note that you need not get everything perfectly prepped--just get the spaces as clean as you can, within reason, and dry.

There really is a reason behind this.

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:57 am

Cleanliness, ventilation and time.

Once you're clean (and it sounds to me as though you're way overboard on that one!), ventilation and time will work wonders. The Morgan 27 stank of bilge and oil but once the rotting plywood was out, and I replaced the rotting engine beds, it took a year before she didn't smell. Even when closed and laid up for 20 months waiting for a buyer, she never smelled again.

The current boat reeked of her own peculiar mix of oil and bilge such that we could still recognise her particular odor on the winter-stored stuff in the basement at home. Meanwhile, during layup, I had cleaned the bilge and the water tank (with water, detergent and a shop vac) and the boat herself did not smell all that much after the winter. By the end of the season she was odor free.

Fiberglass really isn't all that permeable and it will eventually dry out.

On the other hand, where the oil tank had been leaking in a dirt-floored basement, and even after digging out the basement 3 feet (really!), underpinning, and repointing the stone walls, I could smell oil 15 years later.

Earth and mortar are more permeable than fiberglass. Wood, particularly end grain, is quite permeable. Broken tabbing traps gunk between the tabbing and the wood.

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:52 pm

You really should try the ozone machine.

Hotels use them to make non smoking rooms out of smoking rooms. Insurance restoration contractors use it to get the stink out after a claim.
Kills molds and mildews.

It is tough on rubber, but it does work.

I know. I HAD a stinky boat. I don't now.

<<<<<<WAY EASIER THAN PAINTING EVERYTHING>>>>

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:12 pm

Ric might be onto something. Those ozone thingies are amazingly effective on some really stubborn odors. I dunno if they'll be as effective with a solvent smell in fiberglass as they are with smoke smell in cloth, but I don't think you have much to lose by trying.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:32 pm

Thanks for the responses, everyone. I'm not sure I could manage to quote everyone properly without it taking all night, but let me address your questions and comments, and provide some additional information. I'll just mention each person's name as I respond.

jp: Thanks for the Shop Vac idea. I had previously not used one because I'd heard of fires caused by vacuuming up flammable liquid. That being said, I think my super-volatile liquid is gone, and this would probably be okay to vacuum up (although the Bilge Bully did stress that it was flammable, so...?)

Ric: I would drive to South America at this point for something that might help. In light of that, Richmond seems pretty close by :-) I'll send you a PM from the forum to see what your schedule looks like.

Fusto: Red Loctite, eh? I'll have to find some and we can compare odors. I've smelled styrene from blisters (not on this boat), so I know what that smells like. This smell isn't like that. I don't know if I can describe styrene, but it's more "sweet" smelling to me. You know, like styrene <laugh>

Jason: I'd love to paint, but there's no way anything larger or less lithe than a house cat could get even close to prepping or painting down there with the engine in the boat, unfortunately.

Charlie and Laura: Pffffffft.

Bly: Heh, I had a similar Shop Vac incident on my Montgomery. I wasn't being lazy, just stupid :-) I had washed out the whole boat with cleaning solution (it was moldy) and then brought a LARGE Shop Vac into the cockpit and started vacuuming out the boat. Then it came time to empty the Shop Vac...... Ooops. I had to bail it out partway.

I did have a few go-rounds with Simple Green, but maybe I didn't put enough in, or enough water, or let it sit long enough. Was your boat on the hard at the time? I was a bit worried about adding that much weight to the bilge while it's on the cradle. Especially because it's (very slightly) oil-canning at the after starboard stand pad, and I can't seem to get the pad to lower. I'm really not sure whether or not to worry about the weight of 40 gallons of water down there (guessing at capacity).

The pictures? They're in my camera. I should send some to Tim (who graciously offered to host them for me).

Hirilonde: I don't believe any woodwork is involved. There was a plywood tray under the fuel tank, which was saturated, but I removed it. It was a fresh gas smell, and that locker is now clean smelling. My deep bilge is all fiberglass. The engine beds are painted metal. There is a small piece of painted plywood dividing the shallow bilge from the deep one (it has a limber hole), but I'm pretty sure that's above the smell area. I agree with you that smelly woodwork would be an issue though, so I appreciate the mention of it.

Tom: Thanks :-) Your boat is one of my very favorites. If a 38-footer were the right size for me, it would be at the top of my list.

The boat is not really damp at all. It was covered in Detroit and the bilge was dry. Also winter is pretty dry there. It is a bit damper here, but then the smell was just as bad there. I think the bilge was dry there - a little water came in on the trip out here, and then of course I've added water to clean so now there is water in the bottom. I think a garboard plug is a good idea. Thinking about that, I've come up with a question: How do you know where to put it in so that you get it at the lowest point? I can't get down to the bottom of the inside with the engine there, so I would have to drill in from the outside.

Tim: I know, I know. I've often wondered if I could ever really be happy with a boat that I *hadn't* stripped down and rebuilt completely. In some ways no, but on the other hand, I think I'd be pretty happy with this boat if it smelled clean. But if I weren't trying to live aboard sooner rather than later, I would LOVE to have bought a project boat. As it was I had to force myself not to. Even today, I started thinking about it..... (DANGER!)

Okay, your culprit list:

Curtains: I'll take them out, good point.

Cushions: They probably smell now, but on the other hand, they weren't in the boat when I bought it, and it reeked then. I had to put them in for the move as they wouldn't fit in my car with all the OTHER boat stuff in there.

Woodwork: Its pretty "dry" seeming. I think it's the original oiled teak. Of course I'll clean it, but at this point I think it's a minor contribution to the smell.

Old interior finish: Well, the wood IS oiled. But it's not "thick" seeming. I can't smell it when I put my nose up to it. But maybe...

Fuel: Gone!

Oil: None in the boat. Wait, the engine! There is a metal plug that came with note to be sure to put it back in the engine, although I'm not sure where it goes yet. Still, this isn't a "fresh" type of smell like if I put my nose up to the oil filler in my car. Fogging oil maybe that got in the bilge? Still, it just smells "old."

Anti-freeze: There didn't seem to be any in the boat and the bilge was dry. I forgot to look in the toilet in Detroit, but there was liquid in it when I got here, so maybe. But it doesn't smell - I think it may never have been used. Oh, except I've been putting some propylene glycol in the bilge at night ever since I found it frozen one morning after a previous evening's cleaning ritual. So it's fresh.

Bilge gunk. Bingo!

Dirt: The boat is mostly pretty clean, although of course there is some dirt. I've been sidetracked from my overall cleaning ritual by the bilge.

Grime: Same.

I agree with you about having everything painted. One thing I liked about this boat is that all the bilges (except the deep one), lockers, cockpit lockers, cabinets, etc. were painted and (relatively) clean. I can't figure out how to clean and paint the bilge without removing the engine. Perhaps I should do that but it seems like a giant leap from taking off the carburetor... NOT ruling it out though!

Cut it out with the "stripped project boat" photos, would you? Sheesh. It's like you're feeding the troll! I'm THIS close to trading "down" to a project boat and renting an house with a spot for it in the driveway.

Quetzal: A year? <faints>

I'll post some photos as soon as I can.

So let's see... where are we.

1) I'm thinking about a garboard plug. It would have to be installed and operated from the outside. Is there a good way to determine where (how low) to drill the hole?

2) Is there an amount of Simple Green that's too much? I don't want to melt the keel off! Also, has anyone tried the purple "industrial" Simple Green? It looks like it might be the same but stronger. Whereas the regular says to mix at a strongest ratio of 1 part SG to 1 part water; the industrial says that 1 part stuff to 4 parts water should be the strongest. I'm interested in it because it doesn't smell the same as the "green," and I'm not enamored of that smell.

3) I wonder if I'll have to take the engine out in the end anyway to deal with this, clean it properly, and paint the deep bilge. If so, I might as well get it over with. Would make changing the cockpit drain gate valves easier too.... Comments on how hard it is to take out? I have no rig up now, but I think the yard could possibly step it on the hard if they had to (more expensive, I imagine, as that means a boom truck instead of the gin pole at the dock, but probably doable). I'm feeling a wee bit freaked out at taking my whole boat apart, but on the other hand, it's not workable now due to the smell.

Thanks again for all your input. Just the camaraderie helps, not to mention the suggestions :-)

--- Rachel

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:08 pm

Rachel wrote: I'd love to paint, but there's no way anything larger or less lithe than a house cat could get even close to prepping or painting down there

And?

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:14 pm

Rachel wrote:I'm thinking about a garboard plug. It would have to be installed and operated from the outside. Is there a good way to determine where (how low) to drill the hole?

I highly recommend one. It makes cleaning and flushing so much easier and you may find it usefull in future times as well.

You want it in the lowest point in your bilge or in the hollow of your keel (if you have a hollow section). After you have decided from the inside where you want it you have to figure out how to accurately locate that point on the outside (I'm assuming you won't be able to reach the spot to drill from the inside). If there is a through hull near this spot you can use a level and tape to locate fore, aft, down etc. as applies from it. These measurements and directions can then be used outside from the through hull to pinpoint your drill site. If no through hull is within measurable distance it gets tricky. You now have to use much more remote landmarks that you can ID from the outside. Think like a surveyor. Distances from level and plumb can be transferred to other locations. Actually, if you have access to a transit it can sometimes be a help. I recreated my waterline with one. If your plug ends up an inch or so above the lowest point it isn't a disaster, keep this point in mind as you mark your final X for drilling. Make a very small test hole at this site and verify it inside before drilling the larger hole for the fitting. 1/16" holes are easy to repair. And if you discover this test hole to be a tad high you can always place your hole saw lower but such that the test hole is encompassed by the larger new hole. Good luck should you choose to do this.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:29 pm

Does that cat have plans for the weekend?

"Look, a very slow mouse!" <craftily pulls out burlap sack....>

Hirilonde: Since you can't see or check the plug when you're afloat, do you just use some super-duper locktite on it, or....?

(Fair warning: Gate and other un-approved valve type thread coming up, WITH photos!)

Tom Young · Post by **Tom Young** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:56 pm

inside the bilge, that would be the easiest. Be sure you allow room for the nut and or housing to fit. Then you can drill the correct size hole from outside using the small hole you drilled from the inside, for a pilot hole.

If you can't, then you would have to do what someone else mentioned. But if the bilge is and has been dry, it may not be that important for the odor.

A source of heat may help to dry things more which may cut down on the odor. Don't worry Rachael, with what you have done so far, it's improving as we speak.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:26 pm

I just used some teflon tape and made it quite snug. I will ask our travel lift operator what he does. He puts many of them in each spring and hasn't caused a sinking yet :)

Jedediah · Post by **Jedediah** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:24 am

So I see lots of votes for Simple Green and a few flammable ones. Now perhaps I've worked in labs for too long, but it is not my cleaning agent of choice. However, I was thinking that to a certain degree the bilge residue is engine related (when it sticks that well it seems to have some hydrocarbon in it) and if it is engine related to try something more in line with an engine degreaser.

I know, it is another huge range of cleaners from solvents to enzymes. What I had in mind was one I used a few years back (I think it was the brand B52). I've never seen it in stores again (here's the website) but it was just strong alkaline. And interestingly enough, the easiest to find substitute for it is Coke--so I've heard. If you can get it without the sugar, all the better--know a friend at a Coke plant? Keep it away from shinny AL (it etches the surface a little and loses it shine). Besides, disposing of the leftovers is easier than most cleaners. Just a thought...

And just for the record, if you do pour Coke in your bilge please let me know. And if it really did something, other than attract ants, I'd be even more interested. This should indicate to you I've never tried Coke, just the B52 stuff...

windrose · Post by **windrose** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:01 pm

Go to a beer joint, eat a greasy hamburger, smoke a pack of Malboro Reds and drink a couple of tall girls .... this will reduce the odor, you won't even notice it.;-)

feetup · Post by **feetup** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:28 pm

Hey Rachel,
I really get a sense that you are dealling with a stale gasoline smell, and if that's what it is I can see why you are dissenamored with it.
Just another stab in the dark, in that I don't know how it will work on a hydrocarbon type of smell but I have used it successfully on both mildew and cat urine (Gag!!!)
What about fabreeze? Could you perhaps buy a couple of large economy size refills and put them into a small garden sprayer? You might be able to bend the tubing of the spray wand in such a way that you could direct a spray or a jet to all areas of the bilge including the under side of the cabin sole etc. through what limited access you have. Often they have an adjustable nozzle where you can get everything from a mist to a jet stream. If fabreeze isn't your thing you might try an oxidizer like Oxy-clean in solution sprayed everywhere down there and leave to sit for a few days before rinsing with the same tool. Then there is a chlorine bleach rinse but if too strong it could take weeks to dissipate that smell.
There are also a number of citrus based degreasers that are both biodegradable and rather clean smelling. They could be diluted or even sprayed full strength through the garden sprayer that I have convinced you to buy.

I suppose you could always spend some time with a bunch of runny nosed pre-schoolers and soon you won't be able to smell anything.

Hope you beat it!

Feetup

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:35 pm

Here are a few photos of bilgey splendor:

This first photo shows the most excellent access I've been whining about.

What some of the obstructions are:

The white corrugated hose goes to the electric bilge pump, which you can see in the bilge. It's not hooked up right now, and in fact, since I took the photo I've pulled it up out of the bilge, to make for easier scrubbing. I haven't gotten it out yet, because its hose is fastened to a board that runs down the forward-upper face of the bilge, but it's tied up by its wires so that it's mostly out of the way. I'm sure I'll replace it, since the plastic is probably gross.

Moving clockwise, you can see the green-handled, engine-intake valve, (which I'll be mentioning again in another, yet-to-be-started thread) and its attached hose.

I haven't investigated the black glob on the left yet, but I have a feeing it contains a couple of battery post clamps somehow stuck together (there are wire nuts and household "cord" used in the boat wiring, so although it's relatively neat and not corroded, I have a feeling it'll be re-done.

The black cable running across the bilge lower down, and exiting from the stbd hull is for a German sumlog. It's sort of neat, but..... (That's another thread: which of the electronics to bother keeping and which to take away. I haven't even figured out what they all do yet. But then I'm busy in the bilge these days.)

The grey shadowy thing further aft is the suction nozzle for the "Bilge Buddy" pump that's in use as a manual bilge pump. The grey water has only been there since I commenced cleaning operations; it was dry before.

Mmmm, a close-up - taken by holding my camera down in under the engine. Most of the bilge, lockers, etc. are pretty much clean and painted - though this is more "dirty and painted." The shiny silver thing just to the right of, and below the bilge pump is my 1/2" socket, which took up residence while I was getting the fuel pump off. The rusty-brown colored stuff on the sides of the bilge higher up has been scrubbed, but is very tenacious (though if I were really able to get in there, who knows).

Thus ends the exciting bilge tour.

--- Rachel

PS to Windrose: Very funny.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:11 pm

The travel lift operator here uses white lithium grease on the threads of the cap of drain plugs. It seems that getting frozen or corroded in is much more of a problem than falling out.

Mark.Wilme · Post by **Mark.Wilme** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:58 pm

I just love this photo :

(Nice hosting service you have there BTW)

If it were me I would suspect my smell was coming from the most difficult to access area and that looks like it. Anything from there has to be uphill.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:26 pm

I gather that there has been lots of soaking, but has there been a lot of scrubbing as well?
I know access is a pain, but a long-handled toilet brush can accomplish a lot.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:14 am

You definitely have some nasty-looking stuff down there, though not nearly as much as in some boats. Overall, what you have there is pretty clean by boat standards--sad though that may be.

Here's what came out of the bilge in the daysailor during early demolition. Yum.

I would suggest that your next step is to install that garboard drain. Get it in there now before you keep cleaning, as it will make things easier going forward. The threads on a garboard plug are self-sealing and don't need a thread sealant to remain leak proof, and they won't unthread and come out, though as Dave mentioned above it probably doesn't hurt to put a lubricant on the threads to prevent them from corroding together, particularly when your boat may stay in the water for a couple years at a time.

Stepping far enough into the future for you to have installed your plug, the next step is some scrubbing. Find something that works. Of course you'll need a long handle, and the toilet brush is a good thought since it is meant to go into tight spaces. The bilge pump ought to lift right out, perhaps by pulling on the wires or discharge hose. Or maybe it's screwed to a board that has some other sort of lifting arrangement. In any event, it's unlikely it's directly secured to the bottom of the bilge, given the depth and lack of access, but you never know. Try and get it out if you can.

Clear the way as much as you can so that you have clear access, and then use any detergent, degreaser, chemical, or whatever of your choice to scrub ho. There's no easy way, so just do it however it takes.

Try any and all of the suggestions above. Nothing will hurt, and something will help. Lots of fresh water flushing is always good too--hence the desire for that drain plug sooner than later.

Good luck!

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:18 am

Thanks for all the comments! I'm at work so don't have time to respond to all of them right now, but I've got a couple of questions on the garboard plug, which I could see trying to install this weekend:

One is that the bronze Perko one that I believe some of you have installed has a brass plug. Since brass isn't great in salt water, how is it that they get away with it here? Is that what makes them "self-sealing" and that's why? The fact that brass is soft?

I checked several brands and did not see any with bronze plugs. There were some all-stainless versions, but I'm not a stainless fan, so I'm ignoring those.

1) As far as installing, once you have the big hole (gaaaah!), and you're ready to put it in... do you seal the edges of the fiberglass in any way? Will the boat be thicker than the spigot on the plug and does this matter?

2) I assume you put it in with 5200 (?). Also, I saw on the web where a fellow waxed the plug flange and then molded it in relief on the boat in thickened epoxy, then installed (so it would be very snug). (See photos below.) Is that overkill or a great idea? Also he ground in a recess for the flange; again, good idea or not necessary? (As a note, I probably wouldn't use microballoons, of if I did I would overcoat them.

I'm happy to keep it simple -- I just ran across this when I was looking for a bronze-plugged version and it looked interesting, though perhaps unnecessary.

You can see what he did here:

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:27 am

Looking at a plug, I just realized something: They mount with machine screws. Machine screws have nuts. On the back side.

How do you get to those when you install the plug? Do you ignore them and tap the fiberglass (that's been on my to-do list to learn anyway...)?

--- Rachel

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:37 am

What we have here is the work of a Fairing Freak. (I'll play the role of Tim or Nathan for a moment, who would certainly chime in with "it takes one to know one!" or "Pot calling the kettle black!")

As slick as the final flush-mounted appearance is, it's entirely unnecessary. Garboard drains have been surface mounted for aeons. Also, the 5200 you plan to use could have done at least half of the fairing accomplished by those microballoons.

That first pic is instructive, though, as it shows that the drain outlet is truly below the lowest point of the bilge. Nice work, whoever it was.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:37 am

These plugs use tapered threads (NPT) that make the plug fit more tightly the more it is screwed in. This is why they seal themselves by virtue of the threads alone, but also can make it tough to remove the plugs too. There's no harm in using some teflon tape or other thread seal if desired.

It's nice to install the flange flush like that, but completely unnecessary on a cruising boat, in my opinion. The amount of drag from the small flange is insignificant.

If you like that installation and want to emulate it, that's fine, as long as you can take the extra time required. But if it were me, on my present or future cruising boat, I'd install it on the outside and not bother with the fancy work here.

I didn't realize that the Perko version had brass plugs. Very interesting. I'm not impressed, and wouldn't go that route.

The version I recommended before was actually a Buck-Algonquin, which advertises itself as cast bronze. I would suggest that you order that one. It's available online at Hamilton Marine (among others, I'm sure). This is the one I would get if I were installing one. Order it and wait a few extra days to install a better fitting (unless you can get it locally, which is of course entirely possible).
Cast Bronze Flush Drain Plug

There's another type that uses a protruding plug that takes a 1/2" wrench. These are all bronze. I wouldn't see a problem using one of these either, though the flush plug is preferable, I think.

Bronze Garboard Drain

Rachel wrote:Looking at a plug, I just realized something: They mount with machine screws. Machine screws have nuts. On the back side.

How do you get to those when you install the plug? Do you ignore them and tap the fiberglass (that's been on my to-do list to learn anyway...)?

Yes--tap the fiberglass and install the machine screws blind. Treat the fastener holes just the way you would if you were installing hardware on deck (which has been covered here many times).

Figure out how thick the hull is in this area, and buy screws of an appropriate length. Use 5200 or similar to bed the fitting; this is really what is going to hold it, not the fasteners. Plus, there's no strain on the fitting except when you go to remove the plug, which is when the fasteners will come into play.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:39 am

Figment wrote:What we have here is the work of a Fairing Freak. (I'll play the role of Tim or Nathan for a moment, who would certainly chime in with "it takes one to know one!" or "Pot calling the kettle black!")

As slick as the final flush-mounted appearance is, it's entirely unnecessary. Garboard drains have been surface mounted for aeons. Also, the 5200 you plan to use could have done at least half of the fairing accomplished by those microballoons.

If Mike is saying that mounting this flush is unnecessary, then you know it's unnecessary.

I actually figured that Mike would be posting reasons why it is good to flush-mount it! You think you know someone...hehe

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:24 pm

The bilge plugs I've seen installed are done from the outside and with sheetmetal screws, not bolts.

I gotta' ask, why is this through hull fitting less serious than any other? Done properly, ordinary through hulls are threaded into the seacock and the seacock is bolted to the hull. In lesser quality installation the through hull is retained with a nut threaded onto it from the inside.

I'm sure we all have the right sized wood plugs tied to each through hull in case of breaking one off.

So, if this thing is several feet down in the keel where you can't install it correctly and where you can't hammer a plug into it, why would you want it?

Post by **Tim** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:55 pm

Quetzalsailor wrote:The bilge plugs I've seen installed are done from the outside and with sheetmetal screws, not bolts.

I gotta' ask, why is this through hull fitting less serious than any other? Done properly, ordinary through hulls are threaded into the seacock and the seacock is bolted to the hull. In lesser quality installation the through hull is retained with a nut threaded onto it from the inside.

I'm sure we all have the right sized wood plugs tied to each through hull in case of breaking one off.

So, if this thing is several feet down in the keel where you can't install it correctly and where you can't hammer a plug into it, why would you want it?

I wouldn't use self-tapping screws (aka sheet metal screws). They don't hold well in fiberglass. Properly tapped machine screws, however, hold extremely well.

A bilge plug is every bit as serious as any other fitting below the waterline. No one indicated anything to the contrary in any of the extensive posts here. But a bilge plug is not like a seacock that sees strain from operation during normal use, such as torque applied from turning a handle--the real reason that through bolting a sea valve is potentially important. A bilge plug is a static fitting that is only operated when the boat is on the hard. Even then, it's subjected to only rotational force in plane with its mounting flange, and in shear with the fasteners, with none of the moment arm-type or longitudinal force that can be applied to a sea valve.

Through bolts would be great if there's room to install them, but in most keel sumps there isn't. The fitting needs to be installed and bedded with care, of course, and properly maintained just like anything.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:36 pm

I would suggest that you order that one.

Okay, you talked me into it. :-)

-Britton

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:46 pm

But a bilge plug is not like a seacock that sees strain from operation during normal use, such as torque applied from turning a handle--the real reason that through bolting a sea valve is potentially important. A bilge plug is a static fitting that is only operated when the boat is on the hard. Even then, it's subjected to only rotational force in plane with its mounting flange, and in shear with the fasteners, with none of the moment arm-type or longitudinal force that can be applied to a sea valve.

I think this is the most eloquently written piece I've read in the forum so far..

Post by **Tim** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:39 am

bcooke wrote:
I would suggest that you order that one.
Okay, you talked me into it. :-)

-Britton

Geez, I wasn't even talking to you! You can't blame me for this expenditure...

(Alas, I'm sure you will anyway! hehe)

MQMurphy · Post by **MQMurphy** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:11 am

A30_John wrote:
But a bilge plug is not like a seacock . . . Even then, it's subjected to only rotational force in plane with its mounting flange, and in shear with the fasteners, with none of the moment arm-type or longitudinal force that can be applied to a sea valve.
I think this is the most eloquently written piece I've read in the forum so far..

Really - there can be a real poetry to good technical writing . . . :0)
(Perhaps you only find that when someone loves their subject)

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:10 pm

You can't blame me for this expenditure

Yes I can.

(Alas, I'm sure you will anyway! hehe)

Yup.

$50 after shipping. Now I have nothing left to buy groceries with.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:48 am

bcooke wrote:
You can't blame me for this expenditure
Yes I can.

(Alas, I'm sure you will anyway! hehe)
Yup.

$50 after shipping. Now I have nothing left to buy groceries with.

-Britton

I did offer you the food leftover from yesterday's NETA meeting!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:10 pm

You just want to make me even fatter so you look that much better in the photos. The fatter I look the better you look. You don't fool me. I know the twisted paths your mind travels upon...

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:28 am

How about an update?

Last Saturday found me making the usual rounds of shops, looking for new cleaning implements (they don't really design that many to reach under an engine and back into a bilge...). I bought one of those articulated flat plates that you use for sanding sheetrock on a ceiling, wire-tied a 3M pad onto it that would take off your arm if you scraped against it wrong, and had another go at the bilge with all manner of miracle cleaners and bilge bullying potions. I also reached in with one of those plastic handled barbecue scrubbers and hand scrubbed the brown areas just beneath where the carb and fuel pump sit. After all that I rinsed really well, then took a dry paper towel and rubbed it across the reachable area. It still smelled! Okay, mister, I'll be back tomorrow.....

Well, I sound tough, but all the wires and connections looked downright intimidating. Luckily, a co-worker called to offer an afternoon of help and as a result I have a brand-new coffee table. Lookee here!

The whole process only took the two of us a few hours, and gratifyingly, I can now see that I would NEVER have gotten the bilge clean with the engine in place. But let's back up for a moment. First all the wires and various hoses, the coupler, and the mounts were removed. All were labelled with blue tape and Sharpie. Luckily, everything came apart with no trouble.

The engine beds are fiberglass - a sort of "C" channel with the bottom of the "C" being the boat's hull. So the mounting bolts' nuts were accessible from the back. This was nice since it meant we wouldn't have to lift the engine up over any studs to take it out. On the mounts, the oil pan sat a few inches above the sole. So the plan was to lift it up a bit with a come-along, let it swing forward (the hook was a bit aft of the companionway), and then lower it onto some foam and carpet scraps before sliding it forward out of the way (well, as out of the way as an entire engine and transmission can be inside a small cabin).

Because of the engine's lifting eye being a bit aft of the companionway, the beam straddling the companionway started wanting to tip aft, and I worried a bit about it falling off the back of the cabinhouse. So ropes were added that went from the ends of the beam forward to stanchion bases, before lifting, just to be sure (we had the beam right near the back edge of the cabin because of the extra strength afforded by the vertical after face of the coachroof). After a bit of hard pressure to "crack" the seal it had to the beds, it lifted up easily and before you know it, the whole thing was resting on the saloon sole. Here are a few photos:

And Voila!

Now I can not only clean the bilge, but also it'll be so much easier to get the the cockpit drains to replace the gate valves with seacocks (more on that in another thread). That black-painted angle-iron thingie looks to have been added after manufacture, and supports the shifter cable and muffler (not sure what other purpose it might have).

There were a couple of foreign objects inside the shaft coupling. A tiny bit of tubing, and some green gunky stuff that looked like it might be spent 3M pad used to buff the coupler facing. That grey matter around the stuffing exit looks like it was there before the cutless bearing was replaced, and then carved away when that was done. It feels kind of clayey/rubbery. Weird.

So now comes the real cleaning and a bit of bilgeology. I have read that other A-30s had a plywood "false bottom" at the bottom of the bilge and I believe mine might have that too, under the couple of inches of water I have yet to evacuate. I measure about 7" difference between the bottom of the bilge and the bottom of the keel outside the boat. I'm not exactly sure how to figure out if the plywood (it does sound a bit hollow when I tap) has been breached by gross bilge water, but I'm thinking that after I dry the bilge, I could drill a small exploratory hole (?); then, if it's wet down inside, cut the plywood out, and if it's dry and seems like it has stayed sealed all this time....? Perhaps fill the hole and leave it?

Also, forward of the engine compartment and beneath the saloon sole are bilge compartments with flat, plywood bottoms (tabbed into the sides of the turn of the bilge). This makes for nice flat lockers, but OTOH there is sloped, inaccessible bilge down there, and that's not cool. Just check out this photo taken by holding my camera down in the deep bilge sump and "looking" forward. The white "wall" is a vertical plywood divider between the saloon bilge (under the plywood box compartments) and the engine bilge, the fiberglass with the red mark on it is actual hull bottom, and the wet area is the bottom of the engine bilge that I assume is plywood. Think that might need cleaning? <shudders>

This photo is of the aftermost "box compartment" - the one just ahead of the engine bilge/sump - looking aft. My plan is to cut the bottoms of these compartments out, leaving about a 1-1/2" tab around the edges, and then to clean out beneath them. Once I see what's down there, I will either grind the tabs off entirely (although they might add stiffness, I don't think they are required structural elements... right?), or leave them and cut new pieces of plywood or G10 to fit over the top of them and secure them with screws and T-nuts (if I want to keep the copartments). I measured, and three T-105 batteries would fit in them pretty easily, so if they were in plastic battery boxes, maybe. That's yet to be decided. They do have batteries in them now.

At least I can get in there now; what a relief!

--- Rachel

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:09 pm

Congratulations! You are really into the boat ownership thing now! :-)

I would comment but I need to eat and then sleep. I will come back later.

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:04 pm

Well, it looks like Allen has some competition for the title of Cleanest A4 Ever!

Keep battling.

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:40 am

Rachel, you're amazing, I've never heard of anyone moving the engine to clean out the bilge! But I can testify that without an engine in mine (yet), it is a lot easier to get in there.

I'm not sure, but I don't think I've seen the phrase "power washer" in this saga yet. Wouldn't that be just the thing for getting down into the recesses?

It would be nice to have the batteries down low like that - if I was doing it, I'd want them held very securely, but I imagine you've thought of that. T-105s are wet cells, though, aren't they? They should be well-ventilated and protected from water, which might be a conflict in that location - maybe sealed batteries would be a better choice if that's the spot for them?

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:02 am

Rachel wrote:I have read that other A-30s had a plywood "false bottom" at the bottom of the bilge and I believe mine might have that too, under the couple of inches of water I have yet to evacuate. I measure about 7" difference between the bottom of the bilge and the bottom of the keel outside the boat.

If I read this correctly you have measured/calculated that there is a 7" difference between the inside and outside depth of the hollow in the keel? Does that article or what-ever you read say anything about why there would be a false bottom there? I don't mean to seem like I doubt you. I have never investigated the A 30 and its bilge or keel hollow. But it sure seems strange to me that they would put in a plywood false bottom there. Encapsulated ballast keels often have hollows in them, and it makes for a great place for bilge pumps and even a salt water intake for heads and such. I have both in my Renegade. The bottom of my keel hollow is approximately 1'" of solid glass. But putting wood in there would seem a silly idea to me. If you are quite sure that this is the case (the 7" difference) even after cleaning and drying out in there, then I would agree that an exploratory hole like you have asked about might be in order. Even if it turns out it has nothing to do with your smell problem knowing the construction there would be a good bit of information.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:08 am

Dave,

I did a bit more bilgeology yesterday, and I have more (but not all) information now. I'll post more about it when I get some photos ready.

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:07 pm

Rachel, I'm very interested to find out how the ballast is secured in the A30. On my boat, the top of the ballast at the forward end is visible and appears to have been poorly covered with some fiberglass tabbing which is now peeling back. I'm curious to know what the factory's method was for installing the ballast. I have been avoiding taking out the plywood bottom because it is in otherwise good condition and would require destruction of my sole and battery mounts. Any pictures or information would be much appreciated.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:11 pm

Yes, I noticed that clean A4 right away.

Hey!, Can you access your transmission shifter directly?

I will either grind the tabs off entirely (although they might add stiffness, I don't think they are required structural elements... right?),

I have to think the hull is strong enough at that point to not need stringers. I am guessing (and just guessing) that the plywood just gave a smooth bottom to look at and work with. Nothing structural.

3 T-105's... What do you have in mind here?

I ask because a single T-105 is a 6 volt battery. Linking two of them together makes them work together as a single 12 volt battery. That is why you often see them in pairs/even #'s. Just wondering what you have in mind.

I may not be reading you corectly because I think you are aware of putting batteries in the bilge where they can get wet. I think the problem is that if they start to short circuit themselves they will emit a lot of hydrogen gas which is on the order of gas fumes in the bilge. Ask Nathan if those deep bilges ever fill up unexpectedly :-)

I am curious what you find out from your A30 sources about that false bilge.

Nice work.

-Britton

Plastic Classic Forum

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If you could get a small right angle drill with a small bit