Thoughts on 16' to 20' Daysailer Design

Triton 185 · Post by **Triton 185** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:27 pm

Hello...I am looking for a shoal draft (18" or so) daysailer that is easy to trailer and quick to launch. As much as I like hanging from the Trapeze and zipping along; this boat will be used for cruising and the odd overnight.

So far I have come up with:

Nordica 16 http://www.nordicaboats.com/html/nordica-16.html

Compac 16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Com-pac_16

Any thoughts on these two designs or any others in the Plastic Classic gendre. I am not looking for a project boat - she must be ready to sail.

Thanks

Richincident · Post by **Richincident** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:00 pm

I sailed an AMF Sunbird prior to purchasing the Soverel 28. The Sunbird is NOT a cruiser, just a day sailer, but she has many fans, is quite attractive and well made, and is not too expensive. Most seem to come with trailers, and ours was in pretty good shape when we bought her, and has been upgraded throughout our and the next ownership. Downside: they are NOT planing boats and they can be knocked down.

On the other hand they sail very predictably, they have an inner hull and self bailing cockpit, the build quality is very good, there is an active listserv on yahoo and lots of fixes for several known issues. They are attractive, and people in my neighborhood still ask (four years later) about the pretty yellow boat I used to have. They can sail in a heavy dew and they are easy to launch and recover. They are pretty light compared to the boats you note in your post...

BTW 15'11" avoids some mooring charges in this neck of the woods. That's the length of the Sunbirds. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amfsunbird/

Case · Post by **Case** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:31 pm

I have one suggestion: O'Day Mariner 19. Its based on the 1959 Philips Rhodes designed Rhodes 19 design which sails very well. Its basically a Rhodes 19 hull with a larger cabin that sleeps 4. The Mariner 19 will sail circles around the Nordica 16 or Compac 16 and does have a classic hull design. Weight is only 1400 LBS something which is easily trailerable.

The Mariner 19 come in keel and centerboard versions. You probably will want the centerboard version. The keel version had cast iron keels and is not that easy to trailer. Most cost under 5 grand for a decent one. I've seen some decent ones go for 2 grand though they probably needed new sails which ups the total cost considerably.

The Mariner 19 and the Rhodes 19 are still being built (and serviced) today by Stuart Marine in Rockland, Maine. So that means parts are pretty available which is a bonus. Stuart Marine sailboats are costly so you're better off looking at the older O'Day boats. O'Days were cheap but not much went wrong with them (for the smaller boats). There are thousands out there so there is a wide menu to look at. It also means that when you decide to sell, you can sell yours faster. Rhodes 19s and Mariner 19s trade hands frequently and is still popular today, even have one design racing.

- Case

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:36 pm

The Compacs have a loyal following and seem to fill their niche nicely.

I owned a Compac 19 for a while. It was a well built boat with lots of interior volume for its size. That short skeg keel and no centerboard made for predictably poor upwind performance but that isn't to say its a downwind boat only. It will go upwind but not terribly efficiently. You need to keep them sailing flat to get the most out of that short keel. I cruised the Maine coast for a few months in that Compac actually. The short keel was no asset and the sitting headroom was a chore on those week long periods of rain and fog. That is why I have a Triton now.

All in all though, what they do they do well and I don't have much bad to say about Compacs.

A marshall sanderling would be a top contender for me if I were looking for a real shoal draft boat that sails well and looks good in the sizes you are looking at.

jlroberts280 · Post by **jlroberts280** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:48 pm

I had a Compac 16. Great little boat but it is small and much more a daysailer than a cruiser.

Richincident · Post by **Richincident** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:04 pm

The Mariner and the Rhodes 19 Cboard versions are both very nice choices. The Mariner is probably the closest to the original request--you CAN sleep in one. I agree that if $$$ are not an issue I would go for the Marshall Sanderling or something like that.

Cape Cod Shipbuilding built a couple of possibilities as well, but they are HARD to find. The Gemini is supposedly pretty fast and has a little cuddy. However the Compac and the Mariner have berths and DO sleep people, but not for long.

But really, this is also true of my 28' boat. She is a day sailer with berths, NOT a cruiser. Curious to see what other ideas people have.

Case · Post by **Case** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:33 pm

I happen to sail in Winnegance Bay in Phippsburg, Maine.

There are LOTS of Marshall Sanderlings there. Catboat races are held there once every August. Winnegance Bay has more catboats than other areas of Maine I have seen so far. They do sail very well and will go upwind decently.

When the winds drop below 5 knots, the various local Marshall Sanderlings and my own Sea Sprite 23 are the only ones still sailing in my area. I definitely do recommend those catboats. But they do not come cheap, I rarely see one under 10 grand (if under, it usually has problems). I think the best bang for buck would be a Mariner 19 as I originally suggested.

- Case

Commander-147 · Post by **Commander-147** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:44 am

Take a look at this boat. I had one for 3 years and if not for monetary reasons I would still have it. You can cruise and I did several week long trips on it.

http://www.precisionboatworks.com/boats/p18/index.html

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:55 am

Lots of advantages in light weight, particularly as one ages, in launching and retrieving a boat off a trailer.

My own preference would leap to a Flying Dutchman equipped with a boom tent. 280 lbs plus rig and stuff. My dad bought one when I was about 11 and we, with a workmate of his, cruised the boat for two weeks at a time on the Chesapeake. Years later, I cruised an FD with my then 10 year old daughter to some of the same places. The FD was designed with that requirement in post-war Europe: not much money around, racers were to be able to tow or cartop their boats and sleep in them! The similar-sized but much heavier Celebrity was the same.

Many other less extreme boats would do this job for you without being some sort of slug that would not be fun to sail. You say that sailing comes first with the odd overnight; look for a sailboat that you can sleep in rather than a heavy compromise that might be moved by a gale.

Triton 185 · Post by **Triton 185** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:07 pm

First off, thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond!

In part, my decision will depend on the proximity of the boat as I am located in Alberta. I would prefer to buy something From the N.W. US or Western Canada. I am looking into U-ship at the moment to see about the cost of shipping from Eastern locations.

The AMF Sunbird, Compact 16 and the Nordica all seem worth consideration. At this point I am leaning towards the Mariner 19 – cabin size is doable/decent sailing performance.

Britton, I agree with you about the Marshall Sanderling’s, but they are way out of my budget. I’m looking for a boat to sail till I get my Triton back in the water.

Quetzalsailor, great picture of the Ford wagon. I’m looking for a cabin, but I did see an add for a lightening that someone had done a good job putting a cabin top on.

You say that sailing comes first with the odd overnight; look for a sailboat that you can sleep in rather than a heavy compromise that might be moved by a gale.

Good Advice......thanks again.

EKE · Post by **EKE** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:41 pm

When I read your description, I instantly thought of the Cape Dory Typhoon. 19' of perfection from Carl Alberg.

More like 30" draft, though. But what the hell!

Triton106 · Post by **Triton106** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:54 pm

Cape Dory Typhoon has been mentioned already.

The other one you might consider is West Widget Potter 16 or 19. One of the west coast sailor Bill Teplow sailed his WWP 19 (Chubby) singlehanded to Hawaii, Alaska, and Mexico. They are very tough little boats and manufactured in Inglewood (near LA), California.

Triton 185 · Post by **Triton 185** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:56 pm

When I read your description, I instantly thought of the Cape Dory Typhoon. 19' of perfection from Carl Alberg.

I hadn't thought of the Typhoon....now you have me thinking - thanks

Triton 185 · Post by **Triton 185** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:03 pm

West Widget Potter 16 or 19.

I will have a look at the 19...at least I have the length decided on!

I came accross the Lyle Hess Balboa 20. Seems like a possibility.

Regarding the Mariner 19. I have read about the different years of production, but I can't seem to find information on when the Mariners had the aft part of the cabin clossed off and a companionway added. I see pictures of the Oday Mariners that are open and the newer Stuart models clossed off. Anyone have an idea when this alteration happened - or am I missing something.

Thanks!

Skipper599 · Post by **Skipper599** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:52 pm

Another one for consideration (if you can find one) is a ... "Cygnus" ... by George Hinterhoeller of C&C fame. The Cygnus is small sister to the famous "Shark", also by George H.

Originally built in St Catherines Ont. Canada, by ClarkCraft, It's a fractional rig, 20 footer. Looks like a big FD. w/more freeboard. ... Was made in three models ... C/B, ... Ballasted C/B ... and Keel. ... It's an open day sailer with a removable Cuddy for racing. ... You sit rather comfortably "in" it rather than "on" it, and very dry for the crew ... unlike some other small boats.

Simple rig, no backstay required, transom hung rudder, with lazerette storage for an O/B motor & gas tank. A 3hp will push it ok on lakes but, I used a 6hp in coastal waters, later upgrading to a 9.9hp due to tidal rips in the narrow channels.

Very roomy, lots of storage space, has a planing hull and very fast. I owned one of the keel models for a few years, Bought it new at Toronto Boat Show ...when living in London Ontario.

I later brought it to the west coast, sailing it hundreds of miles all up and down the straits of Georgia between Vancouver Island and the mainland. Gunkholing among the thousands of islands, sleeping under a boom tent with wife and two kids.

I used a Main w/ working Jib, plus a 150 Genny for light air. Never had Spin's when i had one but, I believe there is one aopproved now ... This boat sailed well in big seas too.

You should be able to find some in Ontario or Quebec at avery reasonable price.
Try googling the name ... I recently sent a package of literature to a fellow who was starting a Class organisation for owners so there is still some class activity somewhere in Ontario.

Skipper599 · Post by **Skipper599** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:01 pm

There's a Cape dory Typhoon advertised on Kijiji in NL for $6800 complete with road trailer.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:17 pm

They certainly did cover "every man."

From:

http://www.pbase.com/nonsuch/hinterhoeller_cygnus_20

Case · Post by **Case** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:41 pm

About the cabin design on the Mariner 19, I believe that the early Mariners had an open cabin (or had doors) with a non-self bailing cockpit up until around the early 1970s. I don't know the exact year but it was the early 1970s for sure. One easy way to tell is to look at the cabin... if it has a hump, it is an early O'Day with this sort of cabin. The later Stuart Mariners seem to be more similar to the early O'Day but with a self bailing cockpit.

In the early 1970s, the deck was redesigned and the cabin was much more streamlined with no hump. This is the self-bailing cockpit Mariner version with closed off cabin. This type seems to be the most common Mariner version which makes sense because most fiberglass sailboats were built during the 1970s. I think that production figures of fiberglass sailboats declined since the 1970s.

Many people like the earlier Mariners because the cockpit was deeper and the cabin had a hump so had more headroom. They had more wood which is a plus for some. But they don't look as nicely streamlined like the later O'Day Mariners.

- Case

Bluenose · Post by **Bluenose** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:01 pm

Triton 185 wrote:
When I read your description, I instantly thought of the Cape Dory Typhoon. 19' of perfection from Carl Alberg.
I hadn't thought of the Typhoon....now you have me thinking - thanks

If the Cape Dory Typhoon is on your list then it seems that you may have relaxed you shoal draft just a bit as trailer launching a Typhoon can be rather painful.

And if you are open to a bit more draft (and maybe a boat that stays in the water) and willing to rough it during you overnight stays, there is always McVay Bluenose Sloop.

She has very similar weight specs as the Typhoon with just a bit more overhang.

And did I mention fun to sail. Really, really fun.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program....

Triton 185 · Post by **Triton 185** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:53 pm

If the Cape Dory Typhoon is on your list then it seems that you may have relaxed you shoal draft just a bit as trailer launching a Typhoon can be rather painful.

And if you are open to a bit more draft (and maybe a boat that stays in the water) and willing to rough it during you overnight stays, there is always McVay Bluenose Sloop.

Bill, very interesting comparison between the Typhoon and the Bluenose. Worthy considerations for a keel boat and both these boats are sweet designs.

It's an interesting process looking for a boat, especially in a size range that you are not familiar with. It has been a process of elimination.

After having a closer look at all the lakes and access ramps in the areas I will be sailing, I have decided to go with a centre boarder. Yes, I admit I have gone full circle on this one!

Thanks again for all the help and I will post pictures of my purchase soon.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:35 pm

After having a closer look at all the lakes and access ramps in the areas I will be sailing, I have decided to go with a centre boarder.

I think that is a good idea. My old Compac 19 drew 2 feet of water on a skeg keel. I had to pick my launch ramps carefully. A lot of them were too shallow to get the boat floating off the trailer before my truck bed was kissing the water.

Submerging the truck bed in salt water was a bad idea. A very very bad idea.

Richincident · Post by **Richincident** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:16 pm

I still kind of like the idea of a boom tent and a fairly high performance planing boat. Then when your Triton is ready to sail you will have something DIFFERENT available for sailing. Especially if you are planning to sail on lakes you can get something with a low freeboard and VERY high performance. Mutineers and Buccaneers and 505's. Well maybe not a 505.

BUT something light and easy to launch and rig. There is a boat called a Sidewinder that I was considering this year, but it is VERY small and I can't really use it in the bay. You could use it on a lake, but it wouldn't be an overnight boat.

BUT Craigslist may have some fine choices for a boat that will suit your needs AND be worth keeping after you get the Triton sailing.

Have fun! My little centerboarder right now is a battered Sunfish that a neighbor gave me because they had given up on it.

Richard

tomwatt · Post by **tomwatt** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:10 am

Nordica's caught my eye when I first got interested in sailing... those and their cousins the Halmans cut a nice image, make a nice little pocket cruiser and are nearly impossible to find. I began to find that I needed to arrange to be on a waiting list to get one that wasn't a total project.
So that went out the window.
Bristol Corinthian perhaps? Or a Rob Roy? Nimble?
Others have already mentioned a lot of great ones.

Richincident · Post by **Richincident** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:43 am

Another possible choice might be the O'Day Day Sailer, which is the little sibling of the Mariner. Fairly good performance, a TINY cuddy, and most I have seen are on trailers. Probably can be picked up for around $2,000. There have been quite a number of manufacturers. Cape Cod Shipbuilding is making them now. There are a LOT of them out there!

Richincident · Post by **Richincident** » Sat May 01, 2010 9:30 pm

Speaking of Mariners here's one for sale in the Boston area for $1,200. It is the 4x4 model, but there are no pix.

http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/boa/1719116492.html

Don't know how far up in Canada you are!

Triton 185 · Post by **Triton 185** » Sun May 02, 2010 12:14 pm

Hello,

I just bought the daysailer! She is a 1969 Oday Mariner. Thanks again to all of you for taking the time to make suggestions. Here are some pics.

I was fortunate to find one that is in good shape and has been stored inside.

Richincident · Post by **Richincident** » Sun May 02, 2010 12:44 pm

BEAUTIFUL! Great find--I think that is the 2x2 version, which offers a bit more cuddy. PERFECT!

Triton 185 · Post by **Triton 185** » Sun May 02, 2010 2:54 pm

BEAUTIFUL! Great find--I think that is the 2x2 version, which offers a bit more cuddy. PERFECT!

Thanks....it is a lucky find. Your correct, she is the 2 plus 2 version.

Skipper599 · Post by **Skipper599** » Sun May 02, 2010 3:38 pm

... This quest to find a day-sailer or weekender prompted me to go on a search of the internet to see exactly what might be available. I came across a site that appeared to have just about anything anyone might be looking for. It's called " SailboatListings.com " ... there are quite a few small trailerable boats as well as an assortment of most of the suggested boats in this thread eg: Sprites, Typhoons, O'Day 20's etc as well as others. Prices look not too bad either.

... With all these boats available at affordable prices, it makes me wonder why am I still building a boat instead of sailing? ... Oh yes, now i remember, I wanted a unique vessel. A boat that would not be the same as the one down the dock ... I can assure everyone it will not be.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun May 02, 2010 4:27 pm

One note on Sailboat Listings: Check the date on the ad. I routinely see ads on that site that are many years old, and unlikely to be currently valid.

Chris Campbell · Post by **Chris Campbell** » Sun May 02, 2010 7:19 pm

Congratulations on your purchase, she looks lovely, and ideal for what you want. And thank you for spawning this thread, it's gotten me a new daysailor, too! After reading about the Cygnus 20 I googled around to find out more, and found one for sale not too far from me here in Halifax (6 hour drive), deal is done, I'll get it next weekend.

Cheers,

Skipper599 · Post by **Skipper599** » Sun May 02, 2010 8:32 pm

... 1). ...Thanks Rachel ... Foolish me, I never thought to do that and I responded to a fellow who was advertising an Albin Vega 27 ... I wonder how old that ad was? I didn't want to buy his boat, I simply wanted a picture of the mast Tabernacle he was expounding on.

... 2). ... Chris ... congrats on buying a Cygnus ... as I said earlier, I owned the keel model for a number of years and had a lot of fun with it. It does have a planing hull just like the Shark and, in the right conditions, you can really make that boat fly.
... Sorry I no longer have any literature on it, I sent the Class Handbook off recently to some fellow in the US who was trying to start an owners association again. It used to be very strong asociation in Ontario and Quebec. I trailered mine around to various club regattas and race meets. Try Googling for the association ... you may be able to contact other recent owners.
... The first Cygnus was built by Hinterhoeller himself but there have been various builders over the years. Mine was built by 'ClarkCraft" of Niagara Falls, ON. Can. In later years, I believe there was a design change to the forward deck. Mine was almost flat with a very slight camber. Sometime later they designed a very bold camber or hump into the deck.
... There were three configurations: Keel, C/B and Ballasted C/B ... what model do you have? and do you have a removable Cuddy for it?

... It would seem to me with the price of gasoline going ever higher, there should surely be a resurgence in small sail boats again, just like we saw the last time we were we were "running out of oil" which is not 100% true, but at least it justified the increase in the prices charged by the multi-nationals ... thank God they've never thought about a tax on the wind ... Shut my mouth ...maybe that will come soon enough ... but with all the hurricanes and Tornadoes they'd be hard pushed to say we're running out of wind or claim that it's a "non renewable" resource.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun May 02, 2010 9:22 pm

Well congrats to both of you! Neato!

And Skipper, no need to feel foolish - normally one would expect an ad site to remove "expired" ads. I've noticed that both Sailboat Listings and American Boat Listings (ABL) seem to leave ads on forever. This is a few years ago now, but I called on some ABL boats wherein the people said the boats had sold long previously and they could not get the ad removed. How annoying would that be!

Rachel

Triton 185 · Post by **Triton 185** » Mon May 03, 2010 6:27 pm

Well congrats to both of you! Neato!

Thanks Rachel and congrats to you Chris. I am looking forward to a summer of boat building and regular sailing.

I did some sailing out of Halifax some years ago. It was on an old wooden schooner named the Esquilar ( I'm not sure of the spelling)

Chris Campbell · Post by **Chris Campbell** » Tue May 04, 2010 7:37 am

Thanks to you, too. I'm looking forward to a summer of packing, moving, setting up a new boat shop and some regular sailing - probably not a lot of progress on the project boat, which is why the "new" one makes so much sense.

I don't know that particular schooner, but there are quite a few around here, all lovely. I'm moving from Halifax down to Mahone Bay, so I should see even more of them going forward, that being the boat-building centre of this area. I'll keep my eyes out for Esquilar or some similarly named schooner. Where are you now?

Cheers,

Triton 185 · Post by **Triton 185** » Tue May 04, 2010 12:08 pm

Where are you now?

I'm in Calgary. I too am finishing my project "Triton".

Take care and good luck with your boats and the move.

SUNBIRD10201 · Post by **SUNBIRD10201** » Sun May 09, 2010 12:17 am

I was going to sugest the 16'9" O'DAY Day Sailer (I, II, or III) being a proud owner of a 1979 model DS II that I've owned for 14 years now, then I saw the idea of occaisional overnighting....... not out of the question on a DS, but not really enough room in the cuddy!

Glad to see that you found what looks like a GREAt 1969 MARINER 2+2, that vintage of Mariner is my favorite! Someone asked about when O'DAY updated the Mariner to the 2+2 (from the original 2-berth open cabin version) and that change was made for the 1969 model year, the MARINER was updated again sometime during the 1972 model year as far as I can tell, to the version that is still built by STUART. Stuart has made a few further changes, including replacing the cast-iron centerboard with a light fiberglass one (70# vs 165#) and increasing the internal ballast (250# of lead in the bilge vs 200# on the O'DAYs.)

EKE · Post by **EKE** » Thu May 13, 2010 2:38 pm

I just love this boat, the Highlander 18, from Selway Fisher in Great Britain:

It just says "camp cruiser" to me. And I love the salty yawl rig. It's not a plastic boat, but stitch and glue plywood construction, so it's a bit out of place here, but I thought I'd share it. Selway Fisher have designed scores of lovely traditionally-inspired plywood boats. I'm a big fan of their work.

Selway Fisher

Plastic Classic Forum

Thoughts on 16' to 20' Daysailer Design

Thoughts on 16' to 20' Daysailer Design

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