Hi All,
I have been following Tim's Keholee project and especially paying close attention to the Beta engine installation because in the back of my mind I know one day I will have to replace my beloved A4 with a diesel (I am a realist and idealist at the same time). I have been favorablly impressed by the comments from the others on both Yanmar and Beta. Beta because it has a A4 replacement model but in reading Tim's experience it seems that it is more hassle to fuss with the clearance issue etc. and you end up having to modify the engine mount pretty substantially anyway. I am wondering if other Beta owners have similar experience or is it due to some unique features Keholee's Beta has (or late model differences) that resulted in all of the trouble Tim had to go through. In reading Tim's original Glissando engine mount experience it did not seem that difficult. I have also read Ferenc Mate and George Buehler's comments on diesel engines that one can find old heavy auto diesel engines (eg. old Mecedes) and convert them into marine diesel and they will last a lifetime. Have not read on this forum if anyone has actually done that. If you have I would appreciate any experience you can share with me.
Best regards,
Another Diesel Question
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Triton106
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Another Diesel Question
Ray D. Chang
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
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JonnyBoats
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If there is a true "drop in" replacement for an A4, I have not seen it. I am in the process of installing a Beta Marine 28 HP diesel in my LeComte 38, so I will share some of my findings with you.
1) An A4 is setup with a single fuel supply line and no return line. Most diesels require a return line back to the fuel tank.
2) An A4 often has a 1.5 in. exhaust hose. My Beta requires a 2 in. (25 mm) exhaust. This means that the entire exhaust system, including muffler, needs to be replaced.
3) Many A4s are bolted directly to the beds, while virtually all diesels will require flexible mounts. This is because diesels vibrate more than gas engines.
4) There are other dimensions to consider beyond just the beds, spcifically the length, width and heigth of the engine. You can be assured that at least one of these dimensions will be different than an A4 for any diesel you find. If the engine is too tall or too wide to fit in your boat, then the spacing of the mounts is a moot point.
Please note that the above points are for any diesel, not just a Beta. As to Beta specific issues:
1) I found that the dimensions of the engine as delivered did not match the dimensions on the mechanical drawing provided to me when I ordered the engine.
2) Like Tim, I found that the engine as delivered had clearance issues with the flexible mounts and the engine. In my case Beta worked with me and replaced out the transmission for one from a different manufacturer. Also like Tim I feel this should have been caught at the factory.
1) An A4 is setup with a single fuel supply line and no return line. Most diesels require a return line back to the fuel tank.
2) An A4 often has a 1.5 in. exhaust hose. My Beta requires a 2 in. (25 mm) exhaust. This means that the entire exhaust system, including muffler, needs to be replaced.
3) Many A4s are bolted directly to the beds, while virtually all diesels will require flexible mounts. This is because diesels vibrate more than gas engines.
4) There are other dimensions to consider beyond just the beds, spcifically the length, width and heigth of the engine. You can be assured that at least one of these dimensions will be different than an A4 for any diesel you find. If the engine is too tall or too wide to fit in your boat, then the spacing of the mounts is a moot point.
Please note that the above points are for any diesel, not just a Beta. As to Beta specific issues:
1) I found that the dimensions of the engine as delivered did not match the dimensions on the mechanical drawing provided to me when I ordered the engine.
2) Like Tim, I found that the engine as delivered had clearance issues with the flexible mounts and the engine. In my case Beta worked with me and replaced out the transmission for one from a different manufacturer. Also like Tim I feel this should have been caught at the factory.
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Tim
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I spoke with the local Beta Marine dealer the other morning on an unrelated issue, and mentioned the issues I'd had with the clearance in the various areas. I don't think, in hindsight, that he truly understood what I had described, but he did mention (rather blithely, I thought) that he always has clearance issues with the forward mounting stud, and cuts the top off in advance before trying installation. (My clearance issue isn't with the height of the stud; any length at all above the flange would have still contacted the petcock and elbow, as described.) The point is, these issues are not uncommon at all, and have apparently become accepted even by large dealers for and installers of this engine.
Based on this experience, I would not recommend any new diesel engine with "Atomic 4 mounts", at least not as a matter of course and without considering the benefits of reworking the engine foundations to accept the wider standard mounts.. The narrow mounting centers on an "Atomic 4 replacement" diesel are an afterthought on any such engine from any manufacturer, installed with probable reluctance on the part of the manufacturer to satisfy a growing market share as more and more Atomic 4-equipped boats are being repowered with small diesels.
These diesel engines are designed around mounts that are 4-5" wider on center than Atomic 4 mounts. Cramming the mounting flanges in this much further is bound to cause tight access, if not untenable clearance issues. The very nature of such narrow mounting centers lessens access to many parts of the engine block, and also makes installing the mounting bolts more of a challenge thanks to the tight clearance caused by having the mounts more or less under the engine rather than a bit off to the side.
Building new foundations is challenging, but not difficult in terms of the skills required. It does require meticulous measuring, patience, trial and error fitting, and care to get them right. It's not "easy" to align new foundations with that imaginary propeller shaft line, but technically speaking it's a straightforward process that is within the grasp of anyone with reasonable woodworking, fiberglass, and mechanical skills.
I would recommend that one look long and hard at the pros and cons of building new foundations for a diesel repower versus retaining the old Atomic 4 foundations and using the narrower mounting option. I think that it makes more sense overall to rebuild from scratch. It seemed to make sense in this case to go with the narrow mounts, but the experience has proved that notion incorrect.
None of this excuses the lack of usability and suitability right out of the crate that I found with this Beta Marine engine. Manufacturers who choose to offer Atomic 4 mounting centers on their small diesels have a responsibility to ensure that said mounts will still allow proper installation and use of the engine. More importantly, they have a responsibility to ensure the accuracy of the mechanical installation drawing, errors in which I find to be completely unacceptable.
Every situation is different, and although I'd choose in the future to rebuild the foundations if possible, there will certainly continue to be situations where such modification is undesirable for any of a potential host of reasons. But reusing narrow Atomic 4 foundations, with the requisite need for narrow mounting centers on the new engine, is certainly not necessarily a beneficial or easy solution to what is always a complex problem.
Based on this experience, I would not recommend any new diesel engine with "Atomic 4 mounts", at least not as a matter of course and without considering the benefits of reworking the engine foundations to accept the wider standard mounts.. The narrow mounting centers on an "Atomic 4 replacement" diesel are an afterthought on any such engine from any manufacturer, installed with probable reluctance on the part of the manufacturer to satisfy a growing market share as more and more Atomic 4-equipped boats are being repowered with small diesels.
These diesel engines are designed around mounts that are 4-5" wider on center than Atomic 4 mounts. Cramming the mounting flanges in this much further is bound to cause tight access, if not untenable clearance issues. The very nature of such narrow mounting centers lessens access to many parts of the engine block, and also makes installing the mounting bolts more of a challenge thanks to the tight clearance caused by having the mounts more or less under the engine rather than a bit off to the side.
Building new foundations is challenging, but not difficult in terms of the skills required. It does require meticulous measuring, patience, trial and error fitting, and care to get them right. It's not "easy" to align new foundations with that imaginary propeller shaft line, but technically speaking it's a straightforward process that is within the grasp of anyone with reasonable woodworking, fiberglass, and mechanical skills.
I would recommend that one look long and hard at the pros and cons of building new foundations for a diesel repower versus retaining the old Atomic 4 foundations and using the narrower mounting option. I think that it makes more sense overall to rebuild from scratch. It seemed to make sense in this case to go with the narrow mounts, but the experience has proved that notion incorrect.
None of this excuses the lack of usability and suitability right out of the crate that I found with this Beta Marine engine. Manufacturers who choose to offer Atomic 4 mounting centers on their small diesels have a responsibility to ensure that said mounts will still allow proper installation and use of the engine. More importantly, they have a responsibility to ensure the accuracy of the mechanical installation drawing, errors in which I find to be completely unacceptable.
Every situation is different, and although I'd choose in the future to rebuild the foundations if possible, there will certainly continue to be situations where such modification is undesirable for any of a potential host of reasons. But reusing narrow Atomic 4 foundations, with the requisite need for narrow mounting centers on the new engine, is certainly not necessarily a beneficial or easy solution to what is always a complex problem.
Perhaps, but you'll never find one that would be appropriate for a boat like a Triton. This might make sense for one of the heavy, lumbering workboat-type boats that Buehler designs...IF one were inclined to search out these old engines and IF one were self-inclined to do the conversion and necessary repairs and upgrades themselves and IF one had plenty of room and IF one was willing to put up with the higher machine noise, lesser efficiency, and higher pollution inherent in older diesels. The larger the engine required, the more financial sense something like this could make. But conversion of an older engine is not free, and would become quite expensive in fact.Triton106 wrote:I have also read Ferenc Mate and George Buehler's comments on diesel engines that one can find old heavy auto diesel engines (eg. old Mecedes) and convert them into marine diesel and they will last a lifetime.
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Triton106
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Hi Tim, John,
Thanks for sharing your experiences with Beta installation. You validated my suspicion that it is easier (to install) and certainly better to determine which engine to repower A4 with not based on ease of installation according to some advertised "A4 Replacement" but on quality, reliability, post-sale support, parts availability, etc... Seems to me that for Triton the best bet is Yanmar 2GM20F (Glissando, Head-over-hill just to name a couple of well known Tritons come with this engine). It is powerful enough to push through the chops and at the same time not too heavy to weigh down the stern.
I am also encouraged to hear that engine bed construction is within the skills of average DIY owners. Only other engine I have not heard too much on is the BMW which Dan Spurr repowered Adria with. He seemed to be very high on that engine but I understand it is out of production so one has to settle with used ones and then there is the parts and support issue.
I also appreciate Tim's point on the larger auto diesel conversion ideas that Ferenac Mate and George Beuhler recommended. I did not think that I have the skills to do it anyway but wanted to cover all the bases.
Can't wait to see how Keholee's Beta runs after all of the trouble Tim had to go through. From what I read they are wonderful engines (although I am disappointed with their lack of attention to the clearance issues that Tim and John reported).
Best regards,
Thanks for sharing your experiences with Beta installation. You validated my suspicion that it is easier (to install) and certainly better to determine which engine to repower A4 with not based on ease of installation according to some advertised "A4 Replacement" but on quality, reliability, post-sale support, parts availability, etc... Seems to me that for Triton the best bet is Yanmar 2GM20F (Glissando, Head-over-hill just to name a couple of well known Tritons come with this engine). It is powerful enough to push through the chops and at the same time not too heavy to weigh down the stern.
I am also encouraged to hear that engine bed construction is within the skills of average DIY owners. Only other engine I have not heard too much on is the BMW which Dan Spurr repowered Adria with. He seemed to be very high on that engine but I understand it is out of production so one has to settle with used ones and then there is the parts and support issue.
I also appreciate Tim's point on the larger auto diesel conversion ideas that Ferenac Mate and George Beuhler recommended. I did not think that I have the skills to do it anyway but wanted to cover all the bases.
Can't wait to see how Keholee's Beta runs after all of the trouble Tim had to go through. From what I read they are wonderful engines (although I am disappointed with their lack of attention to the clearance issues that Tim and John reported).
Best regards,
Ray D. Chang
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
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JonnyBoats
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One key point to consider is that most marine diesels are not manufactured by the company that sells them. In the case of Beta Marine, they purchase the basic engine from Kabota and then add parts it to make it into a marine diesel.
I do not know who makes the basic Yanmar engine, but I have heard that Yanmar purchases their engines from various manufacturers.
Consider also that the transmission delivered with the new engine probably comes from a third manufacturer. (In the case of my Beta the transmission is from PRM Newage LTD)
If one could purchase an engine from a manufacturer who is ISO 9000 certified and that manufacturer took responsibility for the entire engine, then issues like the as delivered engine not matching the drawings would virtually never exist. (If it did, they would loose their ISO certification).
Another point to consider is that most marine engines are sold in relatively low volume compaired to automobile engines. When Toyota makes milions of one particular engine they have a far different situation from what Beta or Yanmar face.
As for the Yanmar 2GM20F, is it still made? I thought it had been replaced by the YM series engine.
I do not know who makes the basic Yanmar engine, but I have heard that Yanmar purchases their engines from various manufacturers.
Consider also that the transmission delivered with the new engine probably comes from a third manufacturer. (In the case of my Beta the transmission is from PRM Newage LTD)
If one could purchase an engine from a manufacturer who is ISO 9000 certified and that manufacturer took responsibility for the entire engine, then issues like the as delivered engine not matching the drawings would virtually never exist. (If it did, they would loose their ISO certification).
Another point to consider is that most marine engines are sold in relatively low volume compaired to automobile engines. When Toyota makes milions of one particular engine they have a far different situation from what Beta or Yanmar face.
As for the Yanmar 2GM20F, is it still made? I thought it had been replaced by the YM series engine.
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dasein668
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I love my Yanmar, but I'm kind of curious about these marinized VW engines: VW Marine. I also love the TDI engine in my Jetta.
I'm sure not going to rush out to buy one though! (Not to mention they're a bit large for a small boat...)
I'm sure not going to rush out to buy one though! (Not to mention they're a bit large for a small boat...)
Nathan
dasein668.com
dasein668.com
It's true, Yanmar no longer makes the 2GM20. Now they make the 2YM15 and the 2YM20 in that size range. They also still make the 1GM10, but that will be discontinued next year and not replaced by another model (not that most people would put that engine in a Triton).
The 2YM15 and -20 have the same basic overall outside dimensions but, of course, a difference of about 5 hp.
Rachel
The 2YM15 and -20 have the same basic overall outside dimensions but, of course, a difference of about 5 hp.
Rachel
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LazyGuy
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I am going through a re-power myself so I am also looking at engines. First off, I do not have the clearance issues that the Triton has. The Luders 33 had enough room for a 4 cylinder, 27 hp Westerbeke so the three cylinder replacement is not a challenge. That is unless it is extraordinarily wide or tall.
My first look was at the Beta then the mechanic told me about Phasor (http://www.phasormarine.com) out of Florida. They use the Kabota engine same as Beta, they do not have the oil extraction pump mounted to the front of the engine but it is about $800 cheaper.
The mechanic showed me one of the new Yanmar YM diesels. I do not know if it was a 15, 20 or even 30 but to remove the water pump, you had to remove the alternator which seems a bit ridiculous. He has also complained about other issues that show low QC such as parts cross threaded on and alternators that do not work. It appears they are trying to get out of the small engine business and concentrate on the larger power boat engines.
Make sure you keep us posted on what you find. I will be posting an update soon.
My first look was at the Beta then the mechanic told me about Phasor (http://www.phasormarine.com) out of Florida. They use the Kabota engine same as Beta, they do not have the oil extraction pump mounted to the front of the engine but it is about $800 cheaper.
The mechanic showed me one of the new Yanmar YM diesels. I do not know if it was a 15, 20 or even 30 but to remove the water pump, you had to remove the alternator which seems a bit ridiculous. He has also complained about other issues that show low QC such as parts cross threaded on and alternators that do not work. It appears they are trying to get out of the small engine business and concentrate on the larger power boat engines.
Make sure you keep us posted on what you find. I will be posting an update soon.
Cheers
Dennis
Luders 33 "Paper Moon" Hull No 16
Life is too short to own an ugly boat.
Dennis
Luders 33 "Paper Moon" Hull No 16
Life is too short to own an ugly boat.
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Triton106
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John, I heard that Yanmars are built as marine engines (not sure by Yanmar or OEMed by another mfg but their website shows a picture of their own FIE manufacturing plants at Nagahara and Omori can make machine injector parts. They are also ISO 14001 certified which I believe is subject to more stringent criterias than ISO9000. Another benefit I think Yanmar enjoys is that they do have higher production volume than the other mfg's including Beta (although I am sure not nearly the volume of Toyota).
It's a shame to hear some of the disappointing reports on the YM series. That is why I have been thinking of buying a second hand GM20 now eventhough I don't really need to repower yet and just hold on to it. But I am not sure if it is a good idea to have a diesel engine sit for a long time. Any comments or know any good source for the GM20 will be much appreciated.
Nathan, the VW marine engines are cool looking but did you check out the price? The smallest one has a MSRP of 10K euro which is about $14 grand!
Anyone with experience with Phasor? Looks like they are new to the marine diesel market.
Best regards,
It's a shame to hear some of the disappointing reports on the YM series. That is why I have been thinking of buying a second hand GM20 now eventhough I don't really need to repower yet and just hold on to it. But I am not sure if it is a good idea to have a diesel engine sit for a long time. Any comments or know any good source for the GM20 will be much appreciated.
Nathan, the VW marine engines are cool looking but did you check out the price? The smallest one has a MSRP of 10K euro which is about $14 grand!
Anyone with experience with Phasor? Looks like they are new to the marine diesel market.
Best regards,
Ray D. Chang
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
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Triton106
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Hi All,
I found the following used Yanmar 2GM20 source. Anyone had experience with this outfit?
http://www.marathondiesel.com/
I would appreciate any feedback on them.
Best regards,
Ray
I found the following used Yanmar 2GM20 source. Anyone had experience with this outfit?
http://www.marathondiesel.com/
I would appreciate any feedback on them.
Best regards,
Ray
Ray D. Chang
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
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MikeD
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Yup. He bought the business from Jim K. who started the Yahoo Yanmar list. I bought some parts from him last Summer. Not super high tech, and I'm not certain how his prices stand up, but he's extremely helpful and knowledgeable.
Mike
Totoro (SS23 #626)
Totoro (SS23 #626)
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Shoalcove
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Pathfinder Marine is still producing marine diesels based on VW motors. Their latest model is based on the 1.9litre. I'd love to replace my old 1.5 vw with the new one since everything would fit in the same spot. Maybe some day... John and Inge at Pathfinder have been great to deal with.
Best regards,
David
Best regards,
David