We just had an early November gale here on Lake Michigan, and a few boats suffered some damage (not Ariel). Several boats had their cleats torn out of the deck/rail, but some had their cleats and chocks fail. In those cases, the cleat or chock was hollow. Is this typical construction? Are most cast cleats hollow?
I had always assumed that Ariel's Spartan Marine bronze cleats were solid - and I hope they are - but now I'm beginning to wonder.
Hollow Cleats
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Re: Hollow Cleats
The cleat you show in the photo screams "price leader" even without the knowledge of its failure.
I think whether a cleat fails has much more to do with its overall quality, design, and construction (and material) than whether it's solid or hollow. How the boat was tied up in the first place also affects any cleat's ability to withstand the forces at hand, and whether the cleats were placed under undue strains from lines being led at, say, 90° angles off the tops of the horns (which would easily lead to a failure like that seen in your photo and which the remaining line suggests may have been the case). Operator error frequently factors in equipment failures and losses.
Many (I'll refrain from saying most) of the bronze cleats I've removed from boats over the years are hollow, but this doesn't mean they're not good and worthy cleats. I'll check out some of the loose bronze cleats I have hanging around and see what their construction is, since I can't remember offhand.
None of these statements condones the use of poor quality hardware by builders or owners, nor do these statements condone improper tie-up practices, either of which can lead to equipment failures.
I think whether a cleat fails has much more to do with its overall quality, design, and construction (and material) than whether it's solid or hollow. How the boat was tied up in the first place also affects any cleat's ability to withstand the forces at hand, and whether the cleats were placed under undue strains from lines being led at, say, 90° angles off the tops of the horns (which would easily lead to a failure like that seen in your photo and which the remaining line suggests may have been the case). Operator error frequently factors in equipment failures and losses.
Many (I'll refrain from saying most) of the bronze cleats I've removed from boats over the years are hollow, but this doesn't mean they're not good and worthy cleats. I'll check out some of the loose bronze cleats I have hanging around and see what their construction is, since I can't remember offhand.
None of these statements condones the use of poor quality hardware by builders or owners, nor do these statements condone improper tie-up practices, either of which can lead to equipment failures.
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Re: Hollow Cleats
Tim,
Thanks for the response.
Our marina is hell on boats when the wind kicks up out of the W through NW. It's a real test of equipment and techniques. Unfortunately, several owners don't seem to care (or know?) about either. Their carelessness is compounded by cement docks with sharp edges that tower 3' above most boats, making for horrible leads and loads of chafe. Some of the dock line leads place the pull upward at a steep angle. For example, this guy's stbd stern line.
So, there's no doubt you're right about improper techniques being at fault, and I have several photos from yesterday to verify that. And, yes, that cleat in my first post screams cost savings. Hopefully, Ariel's cleats are of a much higher quality.
Here's a video I shot from our marina last season when a similar storm blew through. Believe it or not, but the waves kicked up a couple of feet higher later that day. I spent three nights aboard Ariel that time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FR13OrwIGU
And here's a photo of Ariel tied up like Gulliver during last year's storm. All of my primary lines are attached to heavy chains at their anchors to prevent chafe and provide the best lead possible. Secondary (and even tertiary) lines, again, have the best lead possible and enough chafe protection to buy me some time to rig up new lines in the event of a primary line failing. It might look silly, but Ariel came through OK. And that's all that matters to me.
Thanks for the response.
Our marina is hell on boats when the wind kicks up out of the W through NW. It's a real test of equipment and techniques. Unfortunately, several owners don't seem to care (or know?) about either. Their carelessness is compounded by cement docks with sharp edges that tower 3' above most boats, making for horrible leads and loads of chafe. Some of the dock line leads place the pull upward at a steep angle. For example, this guy's stbd stern line.
So, there's no doubt you're right about improper techniques being at fault, and I have several photos from yesterday to verify that. And, yes, that cleat in my first post screams cost savings. Hopefully, Ariel's cleats are of a much higher quality.
Here's a video I shot from our marina last season when a similar storm blew through. Believe it or not, but the waves kicked up a couple of feet higher later that day. I spent three nights aboard Ariel that time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FR13OrwIGU
And here's a photo of Ariel tied up like Gulliver during last year's storm. All of my primary lines are attached to heavy chains at their anchors to prevent chafe and provide the best lead possible. Secondary (and even tertiary) lines, again, have the best lead possible and enough chafe protection to buy me some time to rig up new lines in the event of a primary line failing. It might look silly, but Ariel came through OK. And that's all that matters to me.
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Re: Hollow Cleats
On the later Pearson's 31-2, 33-2 & 36-2 I know Pearson used some rather questionable hollow aluminum cleats. I know of one 36-2 that broke one and have heard of a few others. Below is a pic I took of a 36-2 bow cleat. If I owned one of these boats my first order of business would be cleat replacement. I have no problem with aluminum cleats if they are well built but the ones Pearson used in the later years are borderline in my opinion. What Tim said is spot on though about using proper cleating practices..
Here's a pic of a failed Pearson 36-2 cleat (not my photo):
Here's a pic of a failed Pearson 36-2 cleat (not my photo):
Last edited by Maine Sail on Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hollow Cleats
I just ordered and extra 8" bronze cleat for the bow. The two I have are solid so I am hoping that the one that comes will be solid also. The smaller ones 7", 6" and 4" are all hollow. It was only $46.00 which I thought was a good deal. SS ones on ebay are half that price.
Dan
Dan
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Re: Hollow Cleats
I checked the cleats I have on hand. All I could lay my hands on at the moment were a number of 6" bronze cleats, all of which seem to be solid (at least in the bases; no way to know for sure about the horns). The weight also suggests solidity.
I installed cleats made by Spartan on a boat about 5 years ago, but don't recall their construction. They were nice either way, and I don't think you have any worries with the cleats on your CD.
I installed cleats made by Spartan on a boat about 5 years ago, but don't recall their construction. They were nice either way, and I don't think you have any worries with the cleats on your CD.
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Re: Hollow Cleats
Archimedes figured that out a few years ago...
In any case, I don't think you could cast the horns hollow with no other holes or repairs of holes showing. (There's a brass elephant in my parent's house that's hollow but has a brazed-in plug on its tummy; it fascinated me as a child.)
In any case, I don't think you could cast the horns hollow with no other holes or repairs of holes showing. (There's a brass elephant in my parent's house that's hollow but has a brazed-in plug on its tummy; it fascinated me as a child.)
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Re: Hollow Cleats
Just got my 10" Bronze cleats from Spartan today. SOLID, I wish I could say the same for some of the other bronze cleats I have.