Value of a moisture test in a survey

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:08 pm

Hello Tim, et al.

I just might have found an Alberg 30 that I could bring home for my next project but the surveyor I contacted brought up a point I had not considered. The boat in question is in Michigan and there is no way to do a moisture test while the temperatures remain below freezing. How valuable is the moisture test if there are no other signs of moisture related damage?

Another point I had not realized until I secured the surveryor was that the boat is currently stored outside without cover under four feet of snow. I never would dream of leaving my boat uncovered and exposed to the possible water infiltration and resulting freeze damage. Am I being too conservative or should I be wary? Of course the price is right and I was looking for a project boat after all; not a finished boat.

Thanks,

Britton

The Good Goose · Post by **The Good Goose** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:27 pm

Freezing temperatures can hide deck delaminations pretty well. My decks seemed pretty solid in february. Took a day in the shop before they thawed enough to reveal the delamination. I knew they were bad so it was not an issue. My own feeling about moisture meters is that most things they discover could have been found by other means; sounding etc. These do not work well in freezing temperatures either. If you want the boat buy it contingent on a survey in the spring. If everything is as the p.o. says then your good. It is very hard to carefully go over a boat in the winter especially with four feet of snow on it. If it has been stored like this for very many seasons you can just about bet on some serious deck core issues.

Brock Richardson

Post by **Tim** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:30 am

I echo what Brock said above. As a surveyor, I no longer even form a pretense of doing surveys in cold weather because I think that doing so, and pretending to be able to learn anything useful about the boat, is ridiculous and a disservice to the client. I now refer winter work elsewhere because I know I cannot do a good job under the cold conditions--and see no reason to try.

Sounding is a more accurate means of determining deck condition; sounding does not work well in the cold either. Moisture meters are of questionable value no matter what, though they are a useful tool when used as an extension of other survey techniques. I would be very wary of any survey results obtained from a cold-weather survey. You may be able to learn much about the boat's systems, general condition, etc., but until the weather warms and the snow covering this boat melts, I think it is beyond reason to hope for valuable survey results from hull and deck inspections under the circumstances you describe.

Now, if the price of the boat is right, and you are prepared for the probability that the decks are mush and will require major structural work, then there's no reason not to proceed. Just be sure that you are aware of whatever survey limitations--stated or unstated--there might be, and prepared to deal with the unseen problems later.

Leaving boats uncovered in the snow belt is a bad idea. The freeze-thaw cycles are a killer, since water expands when it freezes. You might buy this boat, but expect the worse! She sounds badly neglected to me. Take the value and whatever information you can get about her condition and make an informed decision based on what you can confirm, and then assume that you will have to repair a host of deck structural issues and possibly freeze-related items.

Good luck!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:32 pm

Thanks,

You guys just validated my thoughts too. The survey is already scheduled so I think I will go through with it. If it looks good then I will probably wait for a thaw and have the surveryor take a second look for water damage which he has already offered at no extra charge.

I should have been suspicious when the owner told me the decks were cored with masonite which eliminated deck core issues. I said nothing at the time but quickly re-read Tim's description of the Glissando project where he states a contrary (and I am sure more correct) opinion.

The price is right and I only hope the current owner hasn't done too much damage in the few years he has held the boat.
Thanks again,

Britton

Dave, 397 · Post by **Dave, 397** » Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:41 am

Man, what is it with the masonite? If nothing else, that stuff's heavy!

Didn't know the A30 had masonite core, but I have found out a lot of the Dutch-built boats of the 60's/early 70's had masonite or even particle board! Wow. Just seems like an odd choice.

Dave

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:47 am

The earlier A30's had masonite but they later went to edge grained balsa.

I suppose to expect no delamination or water damage is a bit unrealistic from a 39 year old boat. I will post a reply again when I found out just how bad it is. Hey, maybe the good price just got better! I just reread Tim's repair and it doesn't seem impossibly hard to do; just messy.

"How bad can it be?" Isn't that the logic that begins all major restorations?

Britton

Post by **Tim** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:06 pm

bcooke wrote:"How bad can it be?" Isn't that the logic that begins all major restorations?

Right you are! All I can say is that if you approach any and all portions of the job one step at a time, you will get through it all successfully--whatever the job might be. Avoid looking at the enormity of the whole restoration, or even of one particular job, and just concentrate on a singular task immediately at hand. One thing leads to another, and the job progresses in a logical fashion.

I'd not only be surprised if you found no core problems during the survey, I'd also be wary of said results. Still, stranger things have happened...not many, though!

Good luck, in any event. Look forward to hearing how it goes.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:21 pm

I got two phone calls from the surveyor today. The first asked if the boat was really where I said it was as no one could find it! The second came fifteen minutes later asking me if I had seen the boat for myself. I hadn't as I live in Boston and the boat is in Michigan.

It took the surveyor ten minutes to determine that the hull "had some issues", the deck was spongy, the compression post seemed to have failed, the interior was a wreck (original) and would need a total replacement, no maintenance appeared to have been performed since the day it left the factory in 1965, every peice of hardware would probably need to be replaced and the hull had been repainted by standing ten feet back and throwing buckets of paint in the general direction. Did I want to continue with the survey? I think he was more surprised than I was. Oh yeah, the good price I was quoted was still about double the quick valuation.

I saved us both some time.

Of course the story I heard from the owner was that it was a good boat with no hull, deck, compression post issues and needing only some minor cosmetic work. The boat was indeed in "sail away" condition but the surveyor thought that any self respecting sailor would be embarrassed to be seen with it.

Some one is exagerating but I am not going to find out who. Is anyone interested in an overpriced Alberg 30 project? It is an early one. A true classic and needing more love and attention that I can give.

Oh yeah, It rained the day before, nullifying the moisture test, and melting some of the four feet of snow the owner failed to sweep off the deck.

So I am still looking...

Thanks for tolerating my rant. I will try to keep it under control next time.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:20 am

Well, that's certainly a frustrating situation, and disappointing too!

The lesson learned here is to never, never, never take the word of a listing, owner, seller, or broker (especially an owner/seller). Everyone has their own feeling about how to define the condition of a boat, but far too often descriptions are sugar-coated for the benefit of selling--or perhaps just because said person is blind to the problems that the boat has (sadly common). What I don't understand is why anyone thinks they could get away with it. Eventually the new owner is going to see the boat and come to his own conclusions. The reality is that the owner rarely sees the boat in as bad a light as does a critical new buyer, but even given this natural disparity I have a real problem figuring out why so many cream puffs, according to their sellers, end up being 1 step away from the dumpster in reality.

The only way to assess what you, the purchaser, thinks of any given boat is to see it yourself. Pictures never tell the whole story, and a surveyor's eyes, while better than nothing, are hardly the same as your own. Of course I understand the logistical difficulty of viewing boats located around the country, but it's truly the only way to really know what you are getting. A survey can only offer objective, third-party views, and cannot read into the mind of the client.

Note also that surveyors tend to cry Chicken Little pretty often--sometimes justified, sometimes not. To some surveyors, a square inch of damp core is cause for a flustered lecture on what a terrible boat it is, etc. Others can keep the findings in perspective, and can also dig a little deeper to truly discover the inner feelings of the client, and how prepared that client may or may not be for the level of project with with they are faced. Some buyers are truly prepared for any level of project, and others have more of a pie in the sky attitude. Being clear about your own motivations and preparedness will be of great assistance to you and your future surveyors when time time comes to assess another boat.

Good luck with the continuing search! Sorry to hear about the disappointment.

The Good Goose · Post by **The Good Goose** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:37 am

just out of curiosity what was the price?

Brock

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:11 pm

Thanks for the sympathy Tim.

My thinking leading up to the survey was that I already knew the boat type and had formed opinions about it so that if a qualified surveyor could find nothing out of the ordinary then I would buy the boat sight unseen.

The logic being that the impartial professional surveyor, who is paid to find faults and not fall in love with a dream, would more likely find reasons not to buy than I ever would. I have learned that qualifications in surveyors vary widely. I agree also that the surveyor may have a different impression on what makes a "good" boat.

I think I will contain my search to a little nearer to home and put my own eyes on a prospect before I go paying surveyor's fees; which in the recent case was a lot cheaper than traveling to the site myself but not very productive as it turns out.

Brock, the boat was offered for $12,500 and I negotiated the seller paying the shipping costs. This was supposed to be for a clean, functioning, sailboat with only minor cosmetic issues. The ten minute survey led to an estimated value in the $4000 to $5,000 range but I wouldn't expect that value to remain that high under any more scrutiny. I have not contacted the seller at this point as he is out of town this week but I can guess he will not be happy. He really has no idea what he is holding on to. After I talk with him, I will be happy to put anyone else who is interested in touch with him.

While I would love to take on a big project, my living conditions, uncertain future and backlog of current projects are really limiting me to a working boat that can be used now and upgraded as time allows. And I hope this one will be a keeper. I don't want another project that will I outgrow before I finish.

BTW. I found a Triton in the back of my cousin's boatyard last weekend (Greens Point Boatyard, Ipswich MA). It hasn't moved in years and it might be a project but I could investigate if someone was interested. I might look for myself even if it looks like too much work. My cousin doesn't want me near it as he likes the current owner who pays their storage bills promptly and never bothers the yard. Then again, my cousin has sold me a couple of dreams that would never float so maybe I need to even the score!

Britton

Post by **Tim** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:04 am

Youch! Yes indeed, for $12,500 you certainly had all rights to expect a decent boat needing only more minor upgrades. That price is fair for an A30 in that sort of condition (since A30s can be worth well into the 20K+ region when in good condition). You were certainly right to run screaming away from that deal.

What a pity that the boat will only sit there and get worse and worse over time, since the owner obviously has no clear concept on what a POS it really must be. So that too-high asking price will only frighten away more and more buyers, while the owner stubbornly refuses to accept the fact that his boat is not what he thinks. It's too bad, but I see this sort of thing all the time--sellers who put a high price on their own memories and sentimental impressions of the boat rather than the often harsh reality. Eventually, the boat gets junked or sold for even less than they probably could have gotten in the first place if they had only been realistic.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:13 am

Here are a couple pictures of that $12,500 Alberg 30 out in Michigan. It's pretty clear even from the photos that all is not well. For 25-40% of the asking price, this one could be worth saving. But from the sound of things, this one is going nowhere fast. Lots of good potential here, but only for the right price.

Post by **Tim** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:29 am

Here are some additional pictures of the Alberg.

Post by **dasein668** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:01 pm

That's "sail away condition"?!

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:25 pm

Why sure, Nathan, in case there's a flood like Noahs, it's there on land with all it's rigging sure to hand... :-P

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:37 pm

"This is a great deal and won't last long" is the opening thread I found on an e-mail list from last October. "A sound boat needing only minor cosmetic work" was what I was told last month. The owner has been sailing it this way for five years now. He keeps meaning to put some work into it but everytime he goes to the boatyard he decides to go out sailing instead.

I like what the surveyor told me. "Yes, it could sail away under its own power but any self respecting sailor would be too embarassed to be seen doing so".

I thought I was too cynical in the past but now "sail away condition" has taken on a whole new meaning for me. "Completely restored" is another of those suspect phrases as is "profesionally maintained" and "needing only minor cosmetic work". From now on I will ignore whatever I hear and read and look only with my own eyes.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:47 am

Unfortunately, many/most of the boats one might look at in this genre and price range will be in pretty neglected condition. There will surely be more false starts, and it's smart to keep expectations low (or at least realistically low) until the personal viewing occurs. Obviously you can't go jetting all around the country looking at every boat, so unfortunately you must rely--at least in part--on the descriptions from seller and/or broker to determine whether or not such trip might be worth it.

The key, as always, is paying the right price for any of these diamonds in the rough. One can accept poor cosmetics if everything else is more or less ready to go. It's when you start stacking cosmetic restoration on top of large projects like rewiring, deck coring, and engine work that you can get into trouble. The difference in time, committment, and investment between cosmetic restoration and full vessel rebuild is staggering. But if the systems work, you can at least play with cosmetics while still using the boat, and then get to upgrading the systems later. Or vise versa, depending on which seems the more critical upgrade.

This Alberg has my favorite kind of wiring, I see. Hide wires? Run them in anything but a straight line from point A to point B? Nah...much better this way.

Hey Nathan: I told you that I thought this is how you should have done your rewiring. See--doesn't this look much better than that nice neat, organized, identifiable, quality stuff you threw in? Sheesh. Some people just don't listen! :<)

I look at these pictures and see a gut job, or close to it. Of course, I see that in just about every boat, frankly. It's a sickness of mine.

To me, it seems there's a lot more neglect going on here than just "deciding to go sailing instead". Why else would there be 4' of snow in the cockpit and an uncovered boat in Michigan in the winter? And these people wonder why suddenly the boat they paid good money for 5 years ago is only worth 1/4 now. Duh! It's such a typical story, one that I see repeated over and over. Sorry everyone, but boats require upkeep and maintenance. If you don't have the time, then pay someone--or get out of boating. Simply not doing anything is unacceptable, at least if you don't want to have your boat's value hammered into oblivion when you go to sell your "gem".

Or buy a thermo-molded Hunter, which I think are designed to simply disintegrate and cease to be after a decade of use--with no maintenance required (or even desirable) in the meantime. One day the boat's there, the next day it has simply vanished as the plastic molecules disperse into nothingness. This building practice should really help keep our boatyards clear of all the bones in the back!