A Triton Motorsailor
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A Triton Motorsailor
I've given it enough thought to be interested, but I certainly haven't thought it all the way through. The Triton has a pretty nice motion under power. It could make a decent power cruiser, except that the motion positively sucks once you unstep the mast, so it can't be a PURE powercruiser.
Initial thoughts on the rig are that it would primarily be there to soften the motion, and give some offwind boost. A low-aspect deal like a cat-ketch or possibly even cat-schooner sailplan.
The hull can only use so much power. I'm thinking that a 3cyl yanmar is more than sufficient.
If one were to construct a smallish pilothouse that extends approx. 30" farther forward than the standard Triton cockpit, one could have "normal" through-deck access to mechanicals and tankage. I think your experience with the Daysailor informs this issue, Tim.
the fundamental lines of the boat would necessarily change. To get the most waterline length, one would want to encourage the stern to squat while underway. This could actually be a cool thing, give it more of a high-prow look appropriate to a powerboat. a new cabintop would be required, of course, to re-level the lines.
I'm thinking of a simple trunk cabin. no step. slab-sided, good bit of crown. Extend 24" or so farther forward than the existing house. The convergence of the flat cabin line and the upsweeping sheer should prevent things from appearing to be overly cumbersome.
Yeah, it could be a fun thing.
The primary downside that I see is the draft. No easy way around that one, though an ambitious rebuilder could drop the ballast, chop the deadwood, and reinstall and refair the ballast. 12 or 18 inches could be gained, I think.
Initial thoughts on the rig are that it would primarily be there to soften the motion, and give some offwind boost. A low-aspect deal like a cat-ketch or possibly even cat-schooner sailplan.
The hull can only use so much power. I'm thinking that a 3cyl yanmar is more than sufficient.
If one were to construct a smallish pilothouse that extends approx. 30" farther forward than the standard Triton cockpit, one could have "normal" through-deck access to mechanicals and tankage. I think your experience with the Daysailor informs this issue, Tim.
the fundamental lines of the boat would necessarily change. To get the most waterline length, one would want to encourage the stern to squat while underway. This could actually be a cool thing, give it more of a high-prow look appropriate to a powerboat. a new cabintop would be required, of course, to re-level the lines.
I'm thinking of a simple trunk cabin. no step. slab-sided, good bit of crown. Extend 24" or so farther forward than the existing house. The convergence of the flat cabin line and the upsweeping sheer should prevent things from appearing to be overly cumbersome.
Yeah, it could be a fun thing.
The primary downside that I see is the draft. No easy way around that one, though an ambitious rebuilder could drop the ballast, chop the deadwood, and reinstall and refair the ballast. 12 or 18 inches could be gained, I think.
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All in jest,
"The different accidents of life are not so changeable as the feelings of human nature. I had worked hard for nearly two years, for the sole purpose of infusing life into an inanimate body. For this I had deprived myself of rest and health. I had desired it with an ardour that far exceeded moderation; but now that I had finished, the beauty of the dream vanished, and breathless horror and disgust filled my heart. Unable to endure the aspect of the being I had created, I rushed out of the room, and continued a long time traversing my bedchamber, unable to compose my mind to sleep."
From Mary Shelly's Frankenstein. Doctor F. realises his mistake the morning after he creates the monster.
R.
"The different accidents of life are not so changeable as the feelings of human nature. I had worked hard for nearly two years, for the sole purpose of infusing life into an inanimate body. For this I had deprived myself of rest and health. I had desired it with an ardour that far exceeded moderation; but now that I had finished, the beauty of the dream vanished, and breathless horror and disgust filled my heart. Unable to endure the aspect of the being I had created, I rushed out of the room, and continued a long time traversing my bedchamber, unable to compose my mind to sleep."
From Mary Shelly's Frankenstein. Doctor F. realises his mistake the morning after he creates the monster.
R.
You know, stranger things have happened. Take a gander (pun intended) at this beauty. http://www.dabblersails.com/companyboat.html
Sorry I still don't know how to post photos. Maybe someone could help out.
Anyway, there are ways to do modifications that don't end up looking like a MacGregor or Bucaneer.
Why not a motorsailer. However, I would try to keep her as much a sailboat as possible. Ever with the added weight and a big 3-bladed prop, I'm sure there would be plenty of times when you could shut down the engine and enjoy the quiet.
Jim
Sorry I still don't know how to post photos. Maybe someone could help out.
Anyway, there are ways to do modifications that don't end up looking like a MacGregor or Bucaneer.
Why not a motorsailer. However, I would try to keep her as much a sailboat as possible. Ever with the added weight and a big 3-bladed prop, I'm sure there would be plenty of times when you could shut down the engine and enjoy the quiet.
Jim
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Haw! Nice pick, Robert.Robert The Gray wrote:All in jest,
. . . Unable to endure the aspect of the being I had created, I rushed out of the room, and continued a long time traversing my bedchamber, unable to compose my mind to sleep."
From Mary Shelly's Frankenstein. Doctor F. realises his mistake the morning after he creates the monster.
R.
- Mike Murphy
S/V Ikey Boy
1968 Westwind 24
S/V Ikey Boy
1968 Westwind 24
- Tim
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I don't think a pilothouse alone makes a boat a motorsailer. What makes a boat a motorsailer is an overall design that is designed for displacement power cruising first, with sail assist. A boat that sails as well as or better than she motors is a sailboat first.
A Triton reconfigured with a pilothouse deck design, with the rig and hull remaining the same, would not be a motorsailer, in my opinion. She'd be a pilothouse sailboat, and would still sail just as well as the original design. She'd also be more comfortable for extended motoring, though--good for cold climates, or extended river or inland cruising. Not all cruising needs to include bone-crushing, teeth-gnashing, seawater-soaked pain in offshore waters. Calm waters, inland locales, and light winds are fun too. And, frankly, those still, platinum-colored semi-rainy days are often some of the most pleasant in their own way. For many people, the ability to go out on these days while remaining in the comfort of their boat's interior would be an attractive option.
I'm not opposed to pilothouses on sailboats, in concept. One doesn't necessarily need to grit their teeth and brave the elements to be a sailor. If one reaches a point in their life (like all the aging baby boomers out there, who are now driving all markets with their needs and desires) where they still wish to sail, but seek a little more comfort, there's no shame in the desire for an inside steering or navigation station where they can operate the boat in relative comfort.
Aesthetics have to come first; there are plenty of hideous pilothouses out there. But pilothouses can be very aesthetically pleasing if done correctly--meaning that the ultimate space within will be compromised in favor of sleeker lines. No, they're not everyone's cup of tea, but we shouldn't downcast on the entire genre because of some preconceived notions, either.
On a Triton, one could build a pilothouse that was barely higher profile than the blocky original doghouse. I love Tritons, but the cabin trunk is not its best feature, and needs to be visually "reduced" by means of tasteful trim or attractive dodgers. I can actually picture a low-profile pilothouse with flush deck forward as being rather attractive on this hull design. Accommodations beyond the pilothouse would be necessarily small, however, within the constraints of the hull design.
Again, this idea isn't for everyone. But I actually think there's legitimate merit in the concept--but as a pilothouse sailboat rather than a more heavily-modified motorsailer. Changing the rig height or cutting down the keel would fundamentally change the characteristics of the hull, and probably not for the better. For a true powerboat with sail assist, one might be better off with a more appropriate hull design that was optimized for motoring, but could still be sailed.
A Triton reconfigured with a pilothouse deck design, with the rig and hull remaining the same, would not be a motorsailer, in my opinion. She'd be a pilothouse sailboat, and would still sail just as well as the original design. She'd also be more comfortable for extended motoring, though--good for cold climates, or extended river or inland cruising. Not all cruising needs to include bone-crushing, teeth-gnashing, seawater-soaked pain in offshore waters. Calm waters, inland locales, and light winds are fun too. And, frankly, those still, platinum-colored semi-rainy days are often some of the most pleasant in their own way. For many people, the ability to go out on these days while remaining in the comfort of their boat's interior would be an attractive option.
I'm not opposed to pilothouses on sailboats, in concept. One doesn't necessarily need to grit their teeth and brave the elements to be a sailor. If one reaches a point in their life (like all the aging baby boomers out there, who are now driving all markets with their needs and desires) where they still wish to sail, but seek a little more comfort, there's no shame in the desire for an inside steering or navigation station where they can operate the boat in relative comfort.
Aesthetics have to come first; there are plenty of hideous pilothouses out there. But pilothouses can be very aesthetically pleasing if done correctly--meaning that the ultimate space within will be compromised in favor of sleeker lines. No, they're not everyone's cup of tea, but we shouldn't downcast on the entire genre because of some preconceived notions, either.
On a Triton, one could build a pilothouse that was barely higher profile than the blocky original doghouse. I love Tritons, but the cabin trunk is not its best feature, and needs to be visually "reduced" by means of tasteful trim or attractive dodgers. I can actually picture a low-profile pilothouse with flush deck forward as being rather attractive on this hull design. Accommodations beyond the pilothouse would be necessarily small, however, within the constraints of the hull design.
Again, this idea isn't for everyone. But I actually think there's legitimate merit in the concept--but as a pilothouse sailboat rather than a more heavily-modified motorsailer. Changing the rig height or cutting down the keel would fundamentally change the characteristics of the hull, and probably not for the better. For a true powerboat with sail assist, one might be better off with a more appropriate hull design that was optimized for motoring, but could still be sailed.
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"Motorsailor" is quite a loose term eh?
My own definition of Motorsailor is a boat that goes at least as well under power as under sail, and that provides its operators with a diminished sensory connection/engagement in the actual sailing.
By that definition, most of today's production cruising sailboats are motorsailors. Big engines to turn big alternators provide enough thrust to do hullspeed against 25knot headwinds. Hydraulic steering disconnects the helmsman from any feedback the boat might give. High topsides (driven by interior volume) distance the occupants from the water. Acres of sunbrella essentially create semi-enclosed pilothouses.
Actually, I'm of the opinion that all of the 30'+ BeneHunterLinas on the water these days are really powerboats with huge antennae.
My own definition of Motorsailor is a boat that goes at least as well under power as under sail, and that provides its operators with a diminished sensory connection/engagement in the actual sailing.
By that definition, most of today's production cruising sailboats are motorsailors. Big engines to turn big alternators provide enough thrust to do hullspeed against 25knot headwinds. Hydraulic steering disconnects the helmsman from any feedback the boat might give. High topsides (driven by interior volume) distance the occupants from the water. Acres of sunbrella essentially create semi-enclosed pilothouses.
Actually, I'm of the opinion that all of the 30'+ BeneHunterLinas on the water these days are really powerboats with huge antennae.
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You know, someone should really upload some concept drawings to this old thread...
How about a flush deck back to the point of the raised cabin or perhaps a bit further aft. A cabin rising to a height a bit more than the typical dodger height. The lazzarettes removed for a wider cockpit sole.
I am not a huge fan of motorsailors but I wouldn't up-anchor if something like this pulled into my harbor.
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Well, I tried a sip of my own medicine. I thought I would throw a drawing up here. Turns out, everything I try looks rediculous. Maybe if you could drop the cabin sole or give up standing headroom in the pilot house but my first try didn't look nearly as good as I had envisioned it might.
Next?
-Britton
How about a flush deck back to the point of the raised cabin or perhaps a bit further aft. A cabin rising to a height a bit more than the typical dodger height. The lazzarettes removed for a wider cockpit sole.
I am not a huge fan of motorsailors but I wouldn't up-anchor if something like this pulled into my harbor.
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...
Well, I tried a sip of my own medicine. I thought I would throw a drawing up here. Turns out, everything I try looks rediculous. Maybe if you could drop the cabin sole or give up standing headroom in the pilot house but my first try didn't look nearly as good as I had envisioned it might.
Next?
-Britton
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Coming from a (slightly) more northern climate, I heartily agree. Keeping the crew warm, safe and dry is not just a comfort issue, either: it can contribute seaworthiness, given the fact that the crew, not the boat, is often the limiting factor?Tim wrote:...there's no shame in the desire for an inside steering or navigation station where they can operate the boat in relative comfort.
That's what's struck me about the stepped cabintop, especially with the forward-facing ports let into it - it's almost like a hint, hint ;). I suspect this could work with or without the flush deck idea, although that is a very interesting one. Would you want to extend the pilothouse forward a bit? What about aft (to, say, enclose the bridgedeck)?Tim wrote:On a Triton, one could build a pilothouse that was barely higher profile than the blocky original doghouse.
Another idea (that's certainly not for everyone) is to make the cockpit into a pilothouse. I saw this done on an Alberg 30: I wish I had thought to take pictures. Notwithstanding the huge trade-off, it did look very salty and practical, and had the look of having been designed that way in the first place.
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I firmly believe that raised deckhouses and/or pilothouses can be designed and built attractively. Obviously, the smaller the boat, the more difficult this is, but there's always a way to make it look well integrated and as if it belongs.
The trouble is, most of these sorts of things are done by people looking to do it on the cheap, with no real skill or sense of aesthetics. That's why one sees so many plywood abominations out there.
I think the Triton is overall too narrow and low slung to work very well with a pilothouse, unless one tried to make the original cabin trunk shape act as a pilothouse; this would work in concept, though visibility would be pretty minimal. Perhaps one of those clear domes could be used overhead so that the operator could poke their head up and see around. But I think there would be better designs with which to try this concept.
I'd still like to try building a small sailbat with raised deckhouse/interior steering--just as an exercise. It would be a fun challenge to combine pleasing aesthetics with good functionality. Personally, I think it could be done to the satisfaction of all but the most diehard traditionalists.
The trouble is, most of these sorts of things are done by people looking to do it on the cheap, with no real skill or sense of aesthetics. That's why one sees so many plywood abominations out there.
I think the Triton is overall too narrow and low slung to work very well with a pilothouse, unless one tried to make the original cabin trunk shape act as a pilothouse; this would work in concept, though visibility would be pretty minimal. Perhaps one of those clear domes could be used overhead so that the operator could poke their head up and see around. But I think there would be better designs with which to try this concept.
I'd still like to try building a small sailbat with raised deckhouse/interior steering--just as an exercise. It would be a fun challenge to combine pleasing aesthetics with good functionality. Personally, I think it could be done to the satisfaction of all but the most diehard traditionalists.
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I think that's a great idea. I've always liked what Stuart Hopkins, the Dabbler Sails guy, and his wife Dee did with their Marshall 22 catboat. They first did this with an 18' Marshall that was such a project boat they could cut the top off without a shred of guilt, and then think outside the box. Then someone made them an offer they couldn't refuse, and they sold the 18-footer and went on to do something very similar with a 21' catboat. Obviously it's not an offshore boat - they planned it for their use on the Chesapeake, but I think it's a really neat coastal boat.Tim wrote:. I'd still like to try building a small sailboat with raised deckhouse/interior steering--just as an exercise. It would be a fun challenge to combine pleasing aesthetics with good functionality. Personally, I think it could be done to the satisfaction of all but the most diehard traditionalists.
Here's a link to the area of Dabbler Sails' website where you can find more photos and more of the story:
http://www.dabblersails.com/companyboat.html
--- Rachel
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Well, I'm no artist or naval architect, as you can easily see. I do like pilothouses as an idea, though, so it was fun.
This one I just sliced off the "step" in the cabin-top and moved it up by its own height. I also extended the cabin back over the bridgedeck. Looks ok to me, but I doubt you could see well enough out of it to steer (except in emergencies, perhaps).
This is more of a "real" pilothouse, i.e. gives decent visibility forward, at the expense of looks and a little more windage. I moved it forward a little closer to the mast, just for proportions, and a little more space. It's impossible to "hide" a pilothouse on a 28' boat, so I think the best thing is to "go for it"? I kind of like it, has a sort of North Sea look.
This one I just sliced off the "step" in the cabin-top and moved it up by its own height. I also extended the cabin back over the bridgedeck. Looks ok to me, but I doubt you could see well enough out of it to steer (except in emergencies, perhaps).
This is more of a "real" pilothouse, i.e. gives decent visibility forward, at the expense of looks and a little more windage. I moved it forward a little closer to the mast, just for proportions, and a little more space. It's impossible to "hide" a pilothouse on a 28' boat, so I think the best thing is to "go for it"? I kind of like it, has a sort of North Sea look.
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...Looking...that's the trouble with Google (or the sloppiness of my reliance on it), I never remember where I found things...
Here's a good hull drawing, superimposed:
http://pearsoninfo.net/triton/linespt3.jpg
aha, here it is:
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Par ... /CTrit.GIF
(from http://www.geocities.com/sailapearson/ )
It's nice to have drawings, isn't it?
Here's a good hull drawing, superimposed:
http://pearsoninfo.net/triton/linespt3.jpg
aha, here it is:
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Par ... /CTrit.GIF
(from http://www.geocities.com/sailapearson/ )
It's nice to have drawings, isn't it?
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Nicely done, Duncan!
I think your first version looks quite good, allowing for some tweaking on a more full-scale drawing or CAD. As you say, though, the new deckhouse is so low as to impede visibility from within. To my eye, though, this is a compromise that would have to be made were a person dead-set on installing a raised deckhouse on a Triton. I think with some tweaking and the addition of trim details later, this version wouldn't be too bad to look at at all. I think I'd move the ports down enough to factor in plenty of crown on the deckhouse roof, much like there is on the original cabin trunk, and possibly extend them closer to the deck.
The second drawing is less visually pleasing to me, though it would certainly be more useful as a true pilothouse. But in this case, with this boat, I'd rather compromise on the visibility for what would be a temporary, sometime-use steering station (more of a nice watch shelter and comfortable navigation area than anything, with actual full operation from inside being less of an overall goal, though engine and steering controls would be there) in favor of better external aesthetics and maintaining some semblance of cockpit visibility and sailing versatility. But overall, this one reminds me too much of the Pearson 300.
If nothing else, this highlights the give and take required by any designer when it comes to combining practicality with good looks. Aesthetics are subjective, of course, but most people can agree that certain things look better than others.
If one were to do this specifically on a Triton, maintaining the soft, rounded contours of the cabin shape would be important to help blend the new structure with the old. These are the sorts of details that are often lost in these kinds of conversions, but which are critical to make it look like part of the boat and not a tacked-on afterthought.
I think your first version looks quite good, allowing for some tweaking on a more full-scale drawing or CAD. As you say, though, the new deckhouse is so low as to impede visibility from within. To my eye, though, this is a compromise that would have to be made were a person dead-set on installing a raised deckhouse on a Triton. I think with some tweaking and the addition of trim details later, this version wouldn't be too bad to look at at all. I think I'd move the ports down enough to factor in plenty of crown on the deckhouse roof, much like there is on the original cabin trunk, and possibly extend them closer to the deck.
The second drawing is less visually pleasing to me, though it would certainly be more useful as a true pilothouse. But in this case, with this boat, I'd rather compromise on the visibility for what would be a temporary, sometime-use steering station (more of a nice watch shelter and comfortable navigation area than anything, with actual full operation from inside being less of an overall goal, though engine and steering controls would be there) in favor of better external aesthetics and maintaining some semblance of cockpit visibility and sailing versatility. But overall, this one reminds me too much of the Pearson 300.
If nothing else, this highlights the give and take required by any designer when it comes to combining practicality with good looks. Aesthetics are subjective, of course, but most people can agree that certain things look better than others.
If one were to do this specifically on a Triton, maintaining the soft, rounded contours of the cabin shape would be important to help blend the new structure with the old. These are the sorts of details that are often lost in these kinds of conversions, but which are critical to make it look like part of the boat and not a tacked-on afterthought.
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Tim, thanks for all your comments. My exercise is more of a fudge than anything else, since I don't know Tritons that well, let alone naval architecture, or technical drawing.
In hindsight, I'm inclined to agree with you about #1 vs #2. It's more "incremental", and after fooling with a few photos, I realized that visibility forward might end up better than I thought at first. Here's a Photoshop exercise I think looks promising (with apologies to #405, Django (Sally Belmont, http://tritonclass.org/mir/405ta.html ).
This is essentially the "raised deckhouse" (version #1) idea - I just copied the stepped part of the coachroof, then pasted it up and aft. The ports/windows aren't quite right, but I like the general idea. I tried a version of the "true pilothouse" (version#2), but it looked so awful I just deleted it.
A couple of thoughts:
- visibility from the cockpit would certainly suffer, but the cabin is narrow enough that you should be able to see around it when she's heeled, or while you are standing up? It might be better to plan on a wheel, though.
- I like enclosing the bridgedeck (and I think it's necessary, for the proportions), but that might make the cockpit seats too short for fair-weather berths? On the other hand, I think you might be able to be creative with a little more cabin space.
Ok, all in fun, but now I'd better get to work!
In hindsight, I'm inclined to agree with you about #1 vs #2. It's more "incremental", and after fooling with a few photos, I realized that visibility forward might end up better than I thought at first. Here's a Photoshop exercise I think looks promising (with apologies to #405, Django (Sally Belmont, http://tritonclass.org/mir/405ta.html ).
This is essentially the "raised deckhouse" (version #1) idea - I just copied the stepped part of the coachroof, then pasted it up and aft. The ports/windows aren't quite right, but I like the general idea. I tried a version of the "true pilothouse" (version#2), but it looked so awful I just deleted it.
A couple of thoughts:
- visibility from the cockpit would certainly suffer, but the cabin is narrow enough that you should be able to see around it when she's heeled, or while you are standing up? It might be better to plan on a wheel, though.
- I like enclosing the bridgedeck (and I think it's necessary, for the proportions), but that might make the cockpit seats too short for fair-weather berths? On the other hand, I think you might be able to be creative with a little more cabin space.
Ok, all in fun, but now I'd better get to work!
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- Tim
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OK, I think you're having way too much fun with these manipulations! Nice job, though...impressively realistic-looking on the Photoshopped picture!
In general, boats with somewhat higher topsides and beefier lines translate better to a pilothouse/raised deckhouse design (unless the boat is very large), since it's easier to blend the high structure pleasingly into the overall look of the boat.
Where there's a will, there's a way. Not all raised deckhouses need to be ungainly. And they don't automatically make a boat a motorsailer, either. The hypothetical Triton in your photo wouldn't sail any differently than the real one, other than some unmeasurable increase in windage. I think that it shows that such a conversion could realistically be done in an attractive way.
In general, boats with somewhat higher topsides and beefier lines translate better to a pilothouse/raised deckhouse design (unless the boat is very large), since it's easier to blend the high structure pleasingly into the overall look of the boat.
Where there's a will, there's a way. Not all raised deckhouses need to be ungainly. And they don't automatically make a boat a motorsailer, either. The hypothetical Triton in your photo wouldn't sail any differently than the real one, other than some unmeasurable increase in windage. I think that it shows that such a conversion could realistically be done in an attractive way.
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Nice photo editing.
I wonder though. We all seem to be looking at the boat from the side. One of the nice features of the Triton is the stern view and I am thinking that the fine transom shape will not go well with a bulky raised pilot house. I think motorsailors really need a more powerful looking transom to complement and support the bigger cabin structure.
I was doing some drawings just with MS Paint and got stopped by the basic hull shape minus the cabin. I think a Triton with the cabin removed would make a great daysailor...
-Britton
I wonder though. We all seem to be looking at the boat from the side. One of the nice features of the Triton is the stern view and I am thinking that the fine transom shape will not go well with a bulky raised pilot house. I think motorsailors really need a more powerful looking transom to complement and support the bigger cabin structure.
I was doing some drawings just with MS Paint and got stopped by the basic hull shape minus the cabin. I think a Triton with the cabin removed would make a great daysailor...
-Britton
- Tim
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I agree with this. Even the standard cabin trunk looks a little high in the stern view.bcooke wrote:One of the nice features of the Triton is the stern view and I am thinking that the fine transom shape will not go well with a bulky raised pilot house.
That Cape Dory 270 hull that was available in RI last year would have made a good candidate for a small boat pilothouse conversion, I believe. It's a much broader, deeper hull shape, particularly in the stern sections.
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Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
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As you say, the least conflict of the cabin and the hull shape is achieved by removing the cabin! I'm also intrigued by Tim's idea of making the deck flush forward. On the other hand, form and function are so intertwined on a sailboat: A nice, bright pilothouse (with maybe a Charlie Noble poking out somewhere) implies comfort and capability, which could complement the basic character of a Triton?bcooke wrote:...We all seem to be looking at the boat from the side. One of the nice features of the Triton is the stern view and I am thinking that the fine transom shape will not go well with a bulky raised pilot house. I think motorsailors really need a more powerful looking transom to complement and support the bigger cabin structure...daysailor.
But you're quite right, if the aft face of a pilothouse is square and bluff, it could certainly be at odds with a graceful stern. I'll try something later when I have a bit more time, but I think the camber in the cabintop (as Tim mentioned) is quite important - perhaps it could match the opposing curve of the transom, for example. Certainly the shape of the companionway or any aft-facing portlights would make quite a difference, too.
From the other end, I think the small bump in the cabintop and the little, widely-spaced ports in it might be improved upon. I've heard that automotive designers pay a lot of attention to the "face" of a car, since we intuitively interpret the front end that way - maybe the Triton's could be less "beady-eyed" and squinty, more bright and open.
Cape Dory 10 & 27
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I think the main advantage of the pilot house motorsailor is the possibility of an interior helm station. hence, I suppose, the term pilot house. If this station is just used for motoring for longer distances in inclement weather than it would be fairly simple to create good visibility. A great challenge in an interior helmstation for sailing is that when the boat heels the side decks raise up and the gunwhale of the boat inhibites the view to windward. We all have to get up on the high side to see to windward when sailing up wind. Motor yachts can have off center helm stations below because they do not heel for long periods of time. If the idea is to just facilitate inclement weather motoring then the helm controls can be anywhere down below. It could even be done by remote on a tiller pilot. but if one wishes to sail and steer the boat from below the visibility to windward while heeling should be considered. I feel that will help determine the maximum height of the dog house. Good design challenge!
r
r
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There's no doubt that on, say, a large old fashioned schooner, a dedicated pilothouse "works" like a charm. It's on the centerline, you can see all around, it's a great place for navigation, and so on. Trying to cram it in to one side of a cabin that's already serving as the lounge, the mess, the cookhouse, the sleeping quarters, and the navigation station - there are a lot more ways to fail than to succeed? How do you steer on port tack when the wheel is down to starboard? How much do you want to be below, and not able to see much, when the sea state is kicking up?
For these (and a few other reasons), I suspect that most "pilothouses" end up being raised salons that are nice bright places for sitting at anchor on a rainy day. Nothing wrong with that, but I think calling it a pilothouse is a bit of a stretch if you don't use it that way.
On the other hand, the idea of somehow sheltering from the weather still has an obvious appeal. I suspect that the companionway is the best spot on a small boat. It can be as simple as sitting there under the dodger holding a tiller extension or the remote control?
For these (and a few other reasons), I suspect that most "pilothouses" end up being raised salons that are nice bright places for sitting at anchor on a rainy day. Nothing wrong with that, but I think calling it a pilothouse is a bit of a stretch if you don't use it that way.
On the other hand, the idea of somehow sheltering from the weather still has an obvious appeal. I suspect that the companionway is the best spot on a small boat. It can be as simple as sitting there under the dodger holding a tiller extension or the remote control?
Cape Dory 10 & 27
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- Boat Name: s/v 'Faith'
- Boat Type: 1964 Pearson Ariel (#226)
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Pearson 300
As was mentinoed already, this idea shapes up to look alot like the Pearson 300.
There is one in my marina that is for sale (and has been for some time).
Kinda neat boat really, I believe the hull is more like I wanderer without the center board. The rig is shorter then would otherwise be expected on the boat, but the saloon is great.
If the helm were moved inside, and a bigger motor were fitted (I forget what motor it has, but I remember that it was smallish... maybe 15hp?).
Might be an easier start then cutting up a Triton, and it would save you a lot of work on the hull too.
There is one in my marina that is for sale (and has been for some time).
Kinda neat boat really, I believe the hull is more like I wanderer without the center board. The rig is shorter then would otherwise be expected on the boat, but the saloon is great.
If the helm were moved inside, and a bigger motor were fitted (I forget what motor it has, but I remember that it was smallish... maybe 15hp?).
Might be an easier start then cutting up a Triton, and it would save you a lot of work on the hull too.
1964 Pearson Ariel #226
'Faith' (the Triton's little sister)
Referred by;
www.sailfar.net
and
www.pearsonariel.org
'Faith' (the Triton's little sister)
Referred by;
www.sailfar.net
and
www.pearsonariel.org
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Make it stop!!!! My eyes My eyes!!!!
Ric Bergstrom
http://andiamoadventures.blogspot.com/
Archived old blog:
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http://andiamoadventures.blogspot.com/
Archived old blog:
http://andiamo35.blogspot.com/
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I have a friend who has a Cape Dory 27 to which he added a hard dodger that is almost an enclosed steering station. The interesting thing is how nicely it fits the CD's lines. It is also a great place to hang out, my friends are in shirt sleeves while the rest of us are in foul weather gear with long johns.
Her name is Whippoorwill and she is owned by Loren and Betsy who have sailed her from the frozen north to the Caribbean several times. I met Loren and Betsy at the Great Dismal Swamp Visitors Center and have had dinner onboard Whippoorwill at Georgetown, there were four of us and we had plenty of room in the cockpit and under the dodger.
Here's an article on SailNet about the construction of the dodger.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-main ... odger.html
While Whippoorwill is not a motor sailor, it would seem that something like this added to a Triton with the after bulkhead moved to the rear of the dodger might work, I'm just not sure if it would look as good with our bi-level doghouse.
Her name is Whippoorwill and she is owned by Loren and Betsy who have sailed her from the frozen north to the Caribbean several times. I met Loren and Betsy at the Great Dismal Swamp Visitors Center and have had dinner onboard Whippoorwill at Georgetown, there were four of us and we had plenty of room in the cockpit and under the dodger.
Here's an article on SailNet about the construction of the dodger.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-main ... odger.html
While Whippoorwill is not a motor sailor, it would seem that something like this added to a Triton with the after bulkhead moved to the rear of the dodger might work, I'm just not sure if it would look as good with our bi-level doghouse.
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Looking at Fig's latest "motor sailor" it appears to be a split level raised ranch. Based on the cockpit cover, step up to the house or down to the salon and vee birth? How much headroom do you think there is in the salon?
I am sure we share a general consensus but that thing is not slapped together. Someone put a lot of time into creating that. Dang!
I am sure we share a general consensus but that thing is not slapped together. Someone put a lot of time into creating that. Dang!
Cheers
Dennis
Luders 33 "Paper Moon" Hull No 16
Life is too short to own an ugly boat.
Dennis
Luders 33 "Paper Moon" Hull No 16
Life is too short to own an ugly boat.
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A Triton Motorsailor
If you were to do that, it would be nice to extend the sides and top of the 'new' house into the front part of the cockpit, creating a sheltered space. A good friend has a wooden boat that was built like that and it's really nice.
The trade off is that there is no bridge deck, you walk directly into the cabin from the cockpit, so no self bailing cockpit. But he's cruised to, and around Mexico and back with no problems. It's a 34' foot boat.
Creating a passageway through the bridge deck on a Triton might cause problems with the engine space, but if possible it would add a lot to the installation.
Bill
Ganges #363
The trade off is that there is no bridge deck, you walk directly into the cabin from the cockpit, so no self bailing cockpit. But he's cruised to, and around Mexico and back with no problems. It's a 34' foot boat.
Creating a passageway through the bridge deck on a Triton might cause problems with the engine space, but if possible it would add a lot to the installation.
Bill
Ganges #363
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What a lovely thread rebirth to see after returning from a long Holiday trip. I think the biggest problem with seeing images like this:
Is that some bad ideas get better by comparison. I can still remember the image burned into my brain that Tim showed my of how bad old sailboat conversions can be:
I guess I just don't understand the whole Motorsailer thing. Why not just get a great classic motorboat and a dinghy with a sailing rig. Many people hardly sail their mast based boats as it is in our area. At least with a neat, classic motor boat you get to and from the anchorages in style and comfort and then cherry pick your sailing in the bays (also in a great little sailing dinghy).
And I'm sorry... Going from this:
to this:
Should be a crime.
Is that some bad ideas get better by comparison. I can still remember the image burned into my brain that Tim showed my of how bad old sailboat conversions can be:
I guess I just don't understand the whole Motorsailer thing. Why not just get a great classic motorboat and a dinghy with a sailing rig. Many people hardly sail their mast based boats as it is in our area. At least with a neat, classic motor boat you get to and from the anchorages in style and comfort and then cherry pick your sailing in the bays (also in a great little sailing dinghy).
And I'm sorry... Going from this:
to this:
Should be a crime.
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mmmm.... Marshall Sanderling...
I can see a motorsailor as more of a 'get there' boat. Its not about the sailing. The sails act more to make the motoring more efficient. The extra cabin might be nice in the off seasons. Not for me but I can see a place for them.
I would definitely opt for a 1920-1930's era commuter boat first and abandon sails altogether.
I gave up on the Triton motorsailor idea a while ago. Its just not the right hull for the job. A boat with a bit more 'junk in the trunk' would make a better candidate.
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I sent this to Tim a while back with the subject "Seagoing Darwin Awards" seemed appropriate for this thread.
http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/wrong_stuff.asp
http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/wrong_stuff.asp
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More than halfway? Ten minutes after you buy it that dodger can be gone. That motor sailor is ugly forever.FloatingMoneyPit wrote:Tell ya what, call me a snob, but putting a monstrous dodger on a pretty catboat is a little more than halfway to Bad-motorsailer-conversion-ville anyway.
Then again, a splinter snob would probably say the same thing about a plastic catboat. To each his own, I guess.
Hi I'm Bill and I'm a purist sailboat snob.
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Britton,bcooke wrote:There is room for everybody out there on the water.
Except maybe PWC's. They are pure evil...
Of course you are right. I just love beautiful sailboats and all the compromising and rationalization just leads to more and more ugly boats. I just don't get how we are drawn into sailing by gorgeous boats but most of the ones at the boat show are aesthetically challenged.
Born at the wrong time I guess.
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Because those boats at the boat show are marketed towards the majority- not towards us (the definite minority). Boats are too expensive to build in small numbers and are thus made to reach the largest audience possible. The largest audience possible are a rather uneducated lot...I just don't get how we are drawn into sailing by gorgeous boats but most of the ones at the boat show are aesthetically challenged.
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Oh, now you guys have done it. You got me going. There are only a few boat shows I will attend anymore and when I do....nobody is looking at the aesthetics of the overall boat; keel, sheer, free board, cabin height above the deck and the teak to fiberglass ratio. Once the boat passes that test I head for the deck. Hardware, brand of hardware, number of lines, are they in a confusing nest or does it make sense? Sheeting angles, main sheet arrangement, length of jib tracks, does it have continuously adjustable jib cars etc.... can you reach the main sheet when you are steering? Can you adjust the jib while steering?
In the time I am doing this 26 people climb aboard, head straight down the companionway, walk to the vee birth, open a few cabinets, wow at the head and leave. On their way off the boat they ask "how much?" so the nicest head with the lowest price wins. Thank you Mr. Bena-hunte-lina.
Change is in the air but not among us normal folk. These new big buck day sailors are really stirring thing up. Got half a mil $ for a 36 foot Morris day sailor that does not even have standing headroom? If I had it, I would jump right in. They are the modern day versions of the boats we are fighting to keep up. Face it, 90% of what we do is day sailing/ weekending. Practical Sailor did a good article about them in the latest issue with an homage piece to Alberg and his designs.
Rant over.
In the time I am doing this 26 people climb aboard, head straight down the companionway, walk to the vee birth, open a few cabinets, wow at the head and leave. On their way off the boat they ask "how much?" so the nicest head with the lowest price wins. Thank you Mr. Bena-hunte-lina.
Change is in the air but not among us normal folk. These new big buck day sailors are really stirring thing up. Got half a mil $ for a 36 foot Morris day sailor that does not even have standing headroom? If I had it, I would jump right in. They are the modern day versions of the boats we are fighting to keep up. Face it, 90% of what we do is day sailing/ weekending. Practical Sailor did a good article about them in the latest issue with an homage piece to Alberg and his designs.
Rant over.
Cheers
Dennis
Luders 33 "Paper Moon" Hull No 16
Life is too short to own an ugly boat.
Dennis
Luders 33 "Paper Moon" Hull No 16
Life is too short to own an ugly boat.